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Old 6th Feb 2023, 4:33 am   #1
lonnyholl
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Default BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

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I'm working on a Australian Phillips 'Colourgram' model RF702. Its turntable is a 240v Phillips 22GC043 with a GP200 Cart, The output of this ceramic cart is 380mV

https://www.facebook.com/multisonics...1254708994415/

The Phillips 22GC043 Turntable is quite a complex mech, and try as I might I cannot get it to work consistently, the mech looks quite worn. So I have a BSR C141R that I can put in as a replacement table, its also 240v, it has a SC5M Crystal Cart which is 100mv output I believe..according to the work done by Ben and others (thankyou guys!)

https://www.hupse.eu/radio/reproducers/GP200.htm

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=119339

The Phillips 22GC043 table has an onboard preamp module, which I was thinking I could use for the BSR Table as well, however there is the discrepancy in output between the two tables carts, 380mv for the Phillips and 100mv for the BSR, has anyone any thoughts that the BSR would still work ok with the Phillips preamp, or would I need to either alter the Preamp circuit or find another Preamp for the BSR?

Thankyou!
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Old 6th Feb 2023, 7:56 am   #2
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

BSR cartridges were quoted for output at 1CM per sec. so as the average was normally 5CM per sec. that would equal 500MV.
Ideal for your gram.
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Old 6th Feb 2023, 1:48 pm   #3
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

As Peter says, you should be fine with that cart. Ceramics of this type are generally interchangeable, it's when you start replacing crystal types or the odd high output ceramic that you get problems with gain.

Measure the clearances carefully, as your Philips deck is a few cm smaller than the BSR. Pay attention also to the extension on the back of the arm, though if I recall on the c141 it's not a proper counterweight and seems to be more decorative than anything else!
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Old 7th Feb 2023, 2:31 am   #4
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

Thanks Peter & Thankyou Ben for your thoughts!

Ben that Phillips table is indeed quite small. I have had to shave little off the (tonearm side) back corner of the opening to get the BSR to fit...space is tight on this slim width Radiogram!

If I do ever come across a similar working Phillips TT then it will still slot straight back in.

Next task will be - connect up the Phillips table preamp to the BSR and power up, will see how she sounds.

Cheers
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Old 7th Feb 2023, 7:12 am   #5
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

BSR C141R is now in place, *working..phillips preamp worked fine...nearly all good.....except...the Auto/stacker/changer spindle is not quite working/dropping the record. Im not sure why either.

Before installing the BSR table - I had taken off the platter and cam, cleaned and relubed including the bearing. The spindle was seized solid and needed penetrating oil and a pair of pliers with padding to get it out. On the underside I had cleaned and relubed what I could see.....the table works ok, and it seems to almost drop, I am using a scratched LP for testing!

With the spindle Im not sure if it has to be clicked into position clockwise or anticlockwise. Anyone know the correct procedure to lock in place and proper location of the spindle for this model?

Just want to make sure its correctly installed before I go any further with it

Thanks
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Old 7th Feb 2023, 8:42 am   #6
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

Update, The spindle top part that moves is pointing towards the left front corner of the table and now the record drops...its not locked/clicked in place though!? I Just have it pushed in and it does not want to click in.

So at the moment records now drop as they should.. but Ive noticed another problem!....I had been been testing at 45 rpm...when I go to 33rpm the mechanism slows down and stops when tonearm starts to move or spindle is activated to drop...same happens when your at the end of record...you have to help the mech by spinning the record a bit to get it going!

Here is a video of what its like...assume there is a tight point/sticky part or parts that could be the cause here but not sure.

Rubber Drive wheel is not oily or greasy.

All in all..hope of a quick dropping in replacement table has not quite materialised!...but I think we should get there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN07LVw_aRs
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Old 7th Feb 2023, 12:18 pm   #7
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

This often occurs in decks that require a complete strip down clean and relube as the mechanism stiffens up as the old lub congeals. The deck keeps running on 45 rpm because the turntable has a little extra momentum.
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Old 7th Feb 2023, 12:56 pm   #8
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

As Analogueman says, that deck needs more work.

You say you have done the cam. You will have seen that there is a follower stud protruding up through the deck into the cam's groove. Thoroughly clean this stud and its runners. Re-grease.

On the deck underside, look for any brown grease areas, especially on sliding plate, clean and relube with light grease.

Stop/start/reject and speed change rack assembly and stepped /sprung assembly may also need freeing up.

Finally give the idler tyre a once.-over round its edge with fine sandpaper and clean platter inner rim with IPA.

The spindle should clip in, once again there is a metal plate with a clip on deck underside that is likely gummy.
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 2:42 am   #9
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

to expand on what Ben says, when he says "Thoroughly clean this stud" it should not just be cleaned but it should spin freely, a little drop of meths or turps on top of the stud/follower should work its way in until you can easily turn it, then 1 drop of sewing machine oil, and spin it again until you see the oil coming out the bottom of the stud/follower. this should help
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 7:10 am   #10
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

Thanks for the guidance everyone, although I had already taken the cam off and cleaned the cam follower and lubricated, I rechecked and recleaned and relubricated.

I resurfaced the Rubber drive wheel with some 1500 grit wet n dry paper...also cleaned its bushing.

Also IPA cleaned the platter drive surface.


Today I also went to town on the underside, I cleaned anything I could possibly get to and lubricated where appropriate. The only part I took off and cleaned further was the Tonearm part a black plastic star shaped part. And also what I think is the underside of the tonearm pivot shaft bushing? which had one phillips screw holding it in place.


After going through a box of cotton buds and copious IPA..did it work ?!

The answer..unfortunately is not quite.. as a new problem arose!

As for the first original problem, initially it was there but the more I used the table the better it seemed to get.

The new problem, I noticed the tonearm when it goes to set down on a 45 7inch record the arm was springing back.
I then manually moved the arm toward the centre and there is a resistance..enough to spring the tonearm outwards away from the spindle.

Any suggestions ...what might be the cause would be most welcome!

See video for more.

https://youtube.com/shorts/jqHzceGcX3Q?
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 8:18 am   #11
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

I'm never been entirely sure what that little black star does, but I think that may well be causing your latest issue. From memory it seems to just turn under resistance and get moved by a thin metal bar, but you may have fitted it in just the wrong position, try turning it manually 30 degrees, then 60 degrees if that doesn't help.. not very scientific I know, but worth a try!
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 8:42 am   #12
lonnyholl
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayerjoe View Post
I'm never been entirely sure what that little black star does, but I think that may well be causing your latest issue. From memory it seems to just turn under resistance and get moved by a thin metal bar, but you may have fitted it in just the wrong position, try turning it manually 30 degrees, then 60 degrees if that doesn't help.. not very scientific I know, but worth a try!
thanks hayerjoe ..its a 'whaddya ma-call it thingy' for sure

It is the only thing I took off and cleaned..apart from that metal bushing which I think is for the bottom of the tonearm, that part sits right next to the black star thingy.

Will try and see if repositioning the black part helps.!
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 9:13 am   #13
lonnyholl
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

Tried repositioning the black star part at 30 and then 60 degrees but unfortunately still the same result....hmm scratching my head.

Resistance is still there on the tonearm when you move it to the centre.

Did I dislodge something during cleaning?
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 11:01 am   #14
lonnyholl
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

can you spot the difference… !
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 11:05 am   #15
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

I may be wrong, but could the 'black star' thing-a-ma-jig simply be acting like a clutch to protect the mech from the situation where the playing arm has not been released from its clip and someone has switched to Auto.
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 2:40 pm   #16
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonnyholl View Post
can you spot the difference… !
The spring is the wrong side of the post.
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 2:58 pm   #17
lonnyholl
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ben View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonnyholl View Post
can you spot the difference… !
The spring is the wrong side of the post.

Indeed Ben!

I must have inadvertently put it on the wrong side when reassembling. Gave just enough extra tension to pull back the arm on set down...at the moment turntable now working as it should!
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 3:41 pm   #18
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Default Re: BSR C141R replacing Phillips 22GC043 Cart ?

Great news!
As Hayerjoe said in post 9, ensure that stud/cam follower is totally freed up, if there is still sluggishness in the auto sequence.
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