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Old 27th Jan 2023, 7:52 pm   #1
Martin Bush
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Default Playing 78's

Hi all

I am in a bit of a quandary and wanted to find out what people suggest.

I have a small collection of 78s and have recently been buying a few here and there that appeal to my musical tastes and are within my budget (less than a tenner posted!).

I will clean them and store them carefully, but I would like to play them too and probably record them to MiniDisc. And this is my problem...

My good deck is a Project but doesn't spin at 78rpm. Even if it did (I know there is a modification), the cartridge and stylus are not easy to change.

I have a small Fidelity player as well as a Bush RP60 - both play 78s but aren't something I think you can record from. I also have a gramophone, but while that's a nice machine I will only play discs on it that I am not worried about.

Am I missing a trick somewhere as regards recording?

Why record the 78s instead of listening to a CD or YouTube? I happen to like the sound.

Martin
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Old 27th Jan 2023, 7:55 pm   #2
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Default Re: Playing 78s

If you can get a 78-compatible needle for any of your players, you can play the 78s at a lower speed, feed the resulting audio into a PC, digitize it, then 'speed-correct' and apply appropriate equalization-curves to it using various bits of free software [VLC? Audacity?]
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Old 27th Jan 2023, 10:43 pm   #3
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Default Re: Playing 78s

My preference is for a second turntable set up for 78s, if you have the space.

There are lots of 1970s turntables about that will do 78s justice, they can sound surprisingly good. I like the Lencos, but idler drive Garrard SP25s can be picked up for peanuts and will do the job when fitted with something like a Goldring G800 or Shure M75 fitted with a 78 stylus. The SP25s are also often fitted in quite compact plinths.
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Old 28th Jan 2023, 12:24 am   #4
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Thanks chaps. I may need to get yet another deck

As things stand none my kit does exactly what I want when it comes to 78s. I had half considered one of the 1210 clones available now and perhaps having two headshells for different formats.

I may seek out an SP25 when I am confident I have space.
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Old 28th Jan 2023, 9:56 am   #5
Edward Huggins
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Martin, why not just use your Bush RP60? This has a flip-under BSR cartridge suitable for 78s and a "Tape Out" socket to feed into your Hi Fi. The BSR cartridge in this will offer excellent sound from 78s, especially as the stylus probably will never have been used. You can also usd the BSR autochanger to full advantage to save you changing the record every 3 minutes.
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Old 28th Jan 2023, 11:02 am   #6
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Default Re: Playing 78's

The ubiquitous Shure SC35C cartridge accepts a 78 stylus (greener-coloured plastics, SS35C-Q, I think, rather than sky blue) You're not supposed to, but you can also fit that stylus into other Shure cartriges too - it works even if the plastics don't fit properly as the cantelever arrangments are common to many Shure moving-magnet models..

The SC35C tracks between 2 and 5g, so you probably need to increase the tracking weight a bit, too: the long-withdrawn 1/2p coin blu-tacked onto the headshell might be about right, if you can find one (NB: not a pre-decimal half penny!).

I have one turntable presently with a heavy-duty BBC tonearm, and with the SC35C in that (and the coin!), it works pretty well. Don't forget to properly mono-up the output though, rather than using just one channel of the stereo pair, otherwise you'll probably be disappointed by the surface noise.

I"m not sure I'd do the slow-speed transfer thing though. You'll be roughly doubling the frequency of the turntable rumble at the same time, and that may also be disappointing.

For what it's worth, many BBC turntable designs included "scratch filters", which are actually relatively unsophisticated notch filters at 4 or 8kHz. They aren't nice to use on LPs, but do sometimes seem to be helpful with 78s. If experimenting in Audacity or whatever, it might be worth a try.

There are also 'de-clicking' plugins available, but they don't seem to work terribly well in my limited experience. It's worth doing a transfer at uncompressed (or lossless) 48kHz sampling or better, as the sharper the click edge is, the easier any detection algorithm can catch it. Another trick is to record the stereo output and create an antiphase mix (the "S" difference signal) that you can selectively mix back in to the mono output (both in their original phase relationship and mono).

It's a black art - good luck!

PS: the 'official' 78 Shure cartridge (that he stylus matches) is mono. which isn't actually helpful

Last edited by Simondm; 28th Jan 2023 at 11:07 am.
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Old 28th Jan 2023, 6:41 pm   #7
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Why complicate things? As Edward says, the Bush RP60 turntable has 78 rpm available, the cartridge is stereo compatible (with mono output) and can take a "flip under" LP(S) / 78rpm stylus. Whilst some 78's are of relatively good sound quality, we are not talking Hi-Fi. The BSR cartridge is capable of quite acceptable results and will not damage the records. The "tape out" socket is mono, so no need to common up channels.
Well worth trying, with very little outlay.

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Old 28th Jan 2023, 10:13 pm   #8
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Good point. I think I had misremembered the outputs on the Bush. What lead would I need in order to go from the output to input(s) on my Arcam amp? I prefer, if possible, to buy a pre made lead (I can make leads but prefer commercially made ones for my hifi these days).

The other challenge is one of logistics as the player is in one location and the hifi elsewhere, but that is my problem
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 3:58 am   #9
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simondm View Post
...There are also 'de-clicking' plugins available, but they don't seem to work terribly well in my limited experience...
In my experience declicking works well, on cylinders and discs, as well sometimes on impulses on magnetic tape recordings, even sometimes impulses on cassettes recordings. It's probably the single most important software tool in "restoration" and rerelease of many old disc recordings since the late 80's.
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 12:59 pm   #10
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Or... just a thought. join us on the dark side and get yourself a wind up Gramophone. A 1925 HMV or Electrola, they are cheap enough, easy to service and sound great.
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 1:04 pm   #11
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Default Re: Playing 78's

I do have a gramophone. The discs I have in mind I don't want to play on it though. I do give it a blast now and then though with less important (to me) discs.
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 1:35 pm   #12
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Just use a cheapo Stereo RCA Phono lead. One end for your Hi Fi and just bridge the other end for your RP60 socket. If the plug from you lead does not quite fit, then source an early RCA Phone "Long Pin" type. The lead does not need to be an "audiophool" type - you'll not hear the difference with this type of set up.
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 1:49 pm   #13
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Depending how far you want to go you can buy USB turntables that can apart from just play 78's can also record them along with software to clean them up.
I had a very enjoyable time doing this some years ago, my efforts have been uploaded to youtube for everyone to listen too. Mostly 1930's dance bands, it's surprising how good they can sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q1IZfXkvfA
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 7:53 pm   #14
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bush View Post
I do have a gramophone. The discs I have in mind I don't want to play on it though. I do give it a blast now and then though with less important (to me) discs.
Understood. I generally play my "special" records maybe once a year and only with new and checked needles. Maybe even with fibre needles.
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 9:55 pm   #15
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Default Re: Playing 78's

My son bought me a mono 78 rpm magnetic cartridge for Christmas. It isn't something I would have splashed out on myself but it does play the 78s really well. I wonder whether it is because it is built to read the side to side groove modulation of mono records rather then the V shaped groove of stereo records.
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 10:00 pm   #16
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Another vote for the Bush RP60. The performance is certainly adequate for 78s. If you find the sound lacks a bit of bass when you plug it into the hi-fi's line input, you could try adding a 1 meg resistor in series.
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Old 29th Jan 2023, 10:40 pm   #17
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Just a thought but wasn’t the RP60 a “live chassis “ type design with U series valves? Would the isolation of the output socket just be by capacitors that may be faulty? If it’s going to be connected to the hi-fi system may be worth checking

Last edited by music-centre; 29th Jan 2023 at 10:45 pm. Reason: Addition
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 12:05 am   #18
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Quote:
Originally Posted by music-centre View Post
Just a thought but wasn’t the RP60 a “live chassis “ type design with U series valves? Would the isolation of the output socket just be by capacitors that may be faulty? If it’s going to be connected to the hi-fi system may be worth checking
It's done thus:

Click image for larger version

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You're placing a degree of faith in the insulation of the output transformer at this point.
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 12:06 am   #19
Martin Bush
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Default Re: Playing 78's

I will proceed with caution on all counts. Before I play any of my more prized discs I will be cleaning them, so it will be a while before I use the Bush 'in anger'.

It has been some time since I used it at all so it may be worth me checking it over anyway.
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 1:28 am   #20
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Default Re: Playing 78's

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulR View Post
My son bought me a mono 78 rpm magnetic cartridge for Christmas. It isn't something I would have splashed out on myself but it does play the 78s really well. I wonder whether it is because it is built to read the side to side groove modulation of mono records rather then the V shaped groove of stereo records.
Yes but a stereo cartridge does just as well if we mono the output electrically. Listening to a mono record in stereo is pointless as the extra "information " we hear is just noise we don't want to hear such as turntable rumble. YT has many uploads of mono records but not presented in mono. I guess the uploaders don't know any better.
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