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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 5th Nov 2022, 5:29 am   #101
TonyDuell
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

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Some 40 years ago I bought a Bib cassette repair kit fromn"Proops" in the Edgware Road: splicing block, geared hand winder, spare empty cassette, and spool of splicing tape. The splicing tape is still good!. I have never had to use the empty casserte, which in fact contains a length of leader connecting the two cores that you could extract and splice the faulty cassette's tape between.
The Philips welded cassettes I had were just welded around the join, and it was always possible to prise the two halves apart using a sharp stout knife, and re-attach them using linen adhesive tape (duct tape).
I seem to remember that the cassette shell in that repair kit was welded, not screwed, which seemed rather silly.

I probably still have one somewhere. I certainly still have, and use, the splicing block. It's useful for re-joining the leader to the tape in the special cassettes and minicassettes used in HP computer tape drives.

I remember seeing, but never had, a special tool, probably sold by 3M, for cracking open welded cassette shells. Sort like a pair of pliers with the tips opening when you squeezed the handles.
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 11:55 am   #102
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

Can you buy a new cassette recorder and brand-new blank cassettes?
The issue with a old recorder seems to be capacitor issues and the need for drive belt replacement.
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 5:04 pm   #103
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

Yes, just google; 'new cassette decks 2022'.
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 7:34 pm   #104
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

Yes to both Neil.

Not sure how great the decks are, but newly produced tapes range in quality from junk to pretty good I believe.
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 12:12 am   #105
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

The only modern production cassette machine worth bothering with is the Teac W1200. However (from memory) its W+F spec is somewhere around 0.15%, which is definitely audible, especially if your material has much in the way of sustained notes. In contrast, relatively modest decks from the 80s and 90s that cost under a couple of hundred quid could hit 0.05 W+F easily, thus rendering any warble inaudible (and top-of-line decks could nudge 0.02).

If you need a new deck, my advice would be to find a last-man-standing deck, such as a Yamaha KX-393. You can find ones that are unused if you look around (my partner's one - purchased new at Richer's in 1998 - was unused until I found it, and it returned factory specs when plugged into my test gear. The only tweak it needed was speed trimming). Yamaha and Sony were the last of the big dogs making decks (Naka bowed out several years before they did). The Sonys look better on paper, but are more complex and more likely to need servicing (I have a late Sony with belts that have turned to black tar).

I hate to say this, but new cassette tape is pointless if you consider how cheaply TDK SA can be found on Ebay. Modern tape is either Ferric, or chrome from old stock tape (making chrome and metal tape involves all manner of hazardous chemicals and no one's done it for decades now to a decent degree).
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 12:47 am   #106
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

What is considered cheap for a TDK SA?

The new tape I am refering to is ferric, which I have no issue with. I do like the fact that it's still being made though. That said, it's not cheap either...
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 2:18 am   #107
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

Ferric works perfectly for reel machines, as the tape is so much wider and faster. Cassette is s...l...o....w in comparison and therefore benefits from high bias formulations. It's such a noisy format that even just a handful of dB improvement is audible. The new tapes are using the same Ferric tape they put on their reels. However, unlike the reels, azimuth is a major issue in cassette (not helped by speed and width). This requires precision shells. Back in the day, TDK / Sony etc. made expensive shells partly for this reason, although their budget D series shells were good. Modern shells aren't that great.

Coupled with Ferric tape, you really want NR for cassette use. However, if the shell precision isn't great, then NR compatibility between machines suffers. You can get unopened SA for around 7 or 8 quid a go - similar to the new cassettes, but the quality is vastly better. Overall SNR and MOL for SA are quite a few dB over modern Ferrics.
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 4:14 am   #108
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

According to Google, the SA production line was closed in 2012. So, how confident can you be that stuff that is on the market as TDK SA is actually just that?

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Old 10th Nov 2022, 8:43 am   #109
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

There's plenty of people selling NOS and good used TDK SA around. Obviously if someone has 'loads' for sale then it may well be hooky stuff, just use your noddle. There's no point in using plain Ferric (Type 1), when there's lots of Type II tapes around that give great performance, the best being TDK SA (and SA-X) and Maxell UDXL-II (and IIS).

Wikipedia explains the different tape types: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compac...ron%20compound.
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 10:47 am   #110
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

I wasn't aware of counterfeight SA... Has anyone seen it out there? My impression has always been that TDK made billions of tapes over the time it was in production (you could buy 5 packs at service stations), whereby there is so much NOS lying around that it wouldn't be profitable to fake it.

Right at the end, during the era when Imation took over, the quality dropped, but I think you'll find even the 2008-11 Imation tape to be better than today's Ferric if I am honest.

This is a great site for info on cassette media: https://audiochrome.blogspot.com/201...surements.html
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 11:00 am   #111
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

I have a fake TDK B. I don't know who makes these nor how much they make on them, but they can be had online via "credible" sites.

The new ones I would like to try, if I could get my hands on one, are the RTM Fox ones. There's also some branded as Capture that I am interested in (not sure who makes those).

It's an interesting point about the shells and one that I'd not thought of. I don't doubt that the old tapes are probably better in many respects, but I do like the fact that new tape is being made and albums released on the format.
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 11:05 am   #112
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

Type II is the 'Chrome'.
Are the new 'shoebox' form recorders all garbage? Just wondering if there are any that are acceptable.
That TEAC machine is listed at 345 UK pounds in one place I looked. I am not looking for hi-fi, but I don't fancy something that sounds like a record that has a hole way off-centre.

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Old 10th Nov 2022, 11:11 am   #113
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

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I bought a hi-fi Philips VHS machine in the late 80s from Dixons for a £100 I believe. It had LED VU meters and left/right level controls for hi-fi recording. It made very good quality audio recordings at half speed and I used it connected to the hi-fi as well as the TV. I used it until my very young son broke it! New Hi-if recorders were still available at that time but less provision was made for their use as audio recorders.

Peter
I believe it was used by smaller radio stations as a way of recording and distributing programmes, because the quality was good and a single low cost VHS tape could record 3-4 hours continuously (or 6-8 hours in LP mode).

Some machines could record picture off-air and hi-fi stereo audio from external inputs, which was intended for programmes that were simultaneously transmitted with stereo audio on FM radio. One of these would need no extra equipment for recording radio programmes as the video content would be irrelevant.
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 11:47 am   #114
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

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What is considered cheap for a TDK SA?
Difficult to say as prices will vary greatly from those merely seeking to 'offload' a few tapes and get a few quid in return, to those who think that they are sitting on a goldmine.

The best way is to do a search for TDK SA tapes on Ebay, then go to 'advanced' and select 'sold items'. The prices will come up in green signifying that these are actual sold prices, not what people are asking. You can then 'sort' by lowest cost first. Then, you'll see the cheapest prices for TDK SA.
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 11:49 am   #115
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

@Neil Purling

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I think that TEAC machine will use the only still-available new mechs which are Tanashin clones of some sort. Whether the TEAC is any good I don't know.

I don't have the cash to but a TEAC to try it, but I have a few machines from various manufacturers produced during the cassette era and those are easy to come by.

There's various players available new at places like Argos if you just wanted to try one for not much money. And if it chews a tape or be rubbish you should be able to return it (don't quote me on that!)
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 4:07 pm   #116
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

If you can find nearly-new decks such as the Yam KX-393 for around a third or less of the price of the Teac new, unless you are really scared of a little basic maintenance (that it may / probably won't need), the KX-393 or similar is a no-brainer. It uses a fairly basic (Alps?) mechanism, but it will be head and shoulders above the Tanashin.

Another reason to buy a late 90s deck is that it'll have Dolby (the current Tascam / Teac offerings don't have it at all, so if you dig out an old tape you'll need to find an outboard Dolby unit or use software decoder).

NB - I have the KX-393 next to my CR-7 and whilst it doesn't have the rock solid W+F performance, in terms of clarity, it rivals many top end decks. Methinks its heads will be leagues above current production ones from China.
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 4:30 pm   #117
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

I think my Yamaha deck is from the same range as the KX described above, and it's a fine piece of kit. For the amount of times I use it, it's perfect.

I think I need to look into Dolby and how it works. I always used to avoid it as, to me, it just sounded like it made tapes sound dull... which may be a misconception
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Old 10th Nov 2022, 4:43 pm   #118
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

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I think I need to look into Dolby and how it works. I always used to avoid it as, to me, it just sounded like it made tapes sound dull... which may be a misconception
Well yes you do need to look into how it works as that view is a stereotype that's been uttered literally millions of times. 'Dolby' is an encode and decode system. So for it to work properly you have to do both, ie record and playback with Dolby 'on'. Just switching Dolby 'on' during playback, will, on any tape, Dolby encoded or not, cause an apparent loss of treble. But if the recording was Dolby encoded, then the that 'loss' of treble will not actually be a true loss vis a vis a would be flat recording. The nett result being a lowering of the noise level due to tape noise. When properly set up Dolby B works well in my opinion. Or put another way, you would need to way up any artefacts that it introduces (if you can hear them) against the benefits of noise reduction. The Dolby B system is effective from approximately 1 kHz upwards; the noise reduction that is provided is 3 dB at 600 Hz, 6 dB at 1.2 kHz, 8 dB at 2.4 kHz, and 10 dB at 5 kHz. Hope that helps.
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 2:49 pm   #119
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

I suspect a handful of us here are also on a forum called "Tapeheads".

Why did I like cassette tape? And why did I come back to it in 2011 after a decade or so away?

Back in the 70s when I was a kid, it was the only viable way to make recordings. And I have always been one to record things. By 1978 I was five years old and already knew my way around a camera. I was given a "shoebox" cassette recorder by my dad, because he knew I wanted to record sounds for posterity too. Even at that age I was thinking "Myself and other people will want to see/hear this long into the future". So I have photos and audio recordings of my school friends and teachers, of my parents telling stories of their childhoods. I started to hook up the MIC input to my cassette recorder to the loudspeaker of the TV (thanks Dad, for teaching me to solder aged 6). And I'd record audio off the TV long before VCRs were affordable. And off the radio. I like to relive radio broadcasts, especially concerts, drama and the occasional news broadcast. If cine film and video cameras were beyond our budget, still photos and cassette would do.

From circa 1979 or 80 when my dad got himself a hi-fi deck we'd both record concerts from radio....classical, jazz, I'd record rock concerts too. So I have quite a big stash of cassettes of live performances that haven't ever been released commercially.

Then of course came 8-bit computers and I still have all the cassettes of programs I wrote (or half wrote) for the ZX81 and Spectrum. Cassette was the only realistic way to make a mix tape too, so when cars, boomboxes and walkman type devices became popular the cassette allowed us to make our own "albums". We swapped tapes in the school playground too, that's how I first heard the Beach Boys SMiLE bootlegs, and other wonders such as "Hey I'll swap you some Jimi Hendrix for your Led Zeppelin. Mozart is cool, have this tape of The Magic Flute". And of course we swapped dubs of computer games too.

But of course as the CDR became cheaper than a good cassette tape, the good old compact cassette began to die off. Cars had CD players, people had portable CD players then MP3 players/ipods then phones. I stopped my home recording around 2003 thinking I'd record digitally from radio to my PC. I didn't have kids and wasn't planning to have any, so no great family events to record in that regard. Plus by then I had camcorders.

In 2011, for the 30th anniversary of the ZX81, I got out my cassettes to see if they would still load. And got back into the Sinclair computers, buying a few new cassettes on which to record new software downloaded from the web. And it also struck me that because of the hassle of setting up the PC to record from the FM tuner and then converting the file to a CDR, I'd actually stopped recording from the radio.

A year later The Beach Boys had their 50th anniversary tour (wife and I got to see the final concert at Wembley) and there was one special concert recorded by the BBC and broadcast on BBC Radio 2. I decided to dust off the cassette deck and record onto type IV cassette from FM radio. While the concert was broadcast I noted how clear it sounded on FM, while people listening online and on DAB couldn't distinguish each voice in the mix. On replay, my cassette sounded just as good as the broadcast. And it rekindled my love of recording concerts from FM radio to cassette. It's also soooo much easier than other methods. Find blank cassette, plonk in machine, press record at the right moment....and all the fun of deciding when to switch to side B! Was I the only person recording Paul McCartney's recent Glastonbury gig live from FM radio onto type IV cassette? Maybe. But I don't care. The cassette will outlive me, becasue contrary to the pushers of "digital transfer" services, magnetic tape is very robust as an archive format if you treat it kindly. My earliest childhood cassettes of my school friends in 1979/80 still play fine. My recording of my dad talking about being a child during WWII made in 1982 is clear as the proverbial bell. My recording of David Bowie live at Milton Keynes in 1990 sounds just like it's being broadcast live today - spectrum analyser even revealing the 19kHz pilot tone has been faithfully recorded.

And I also get a bit of a thrill from the looks I get on trains and aeroplanes when I pull out my walkman and change the tape. Besides, there's no volume limiter on it so unlike my phone I can actually listen to music at a level that makes the music exciting and lively. I can also listen to the exact same cassette I recorded as a child or young adult. And that's an experience my sentimental self values.

The Teac currently available isn't actually that bad. But the aforementioned Yamaha KX-393 was probably the very last truly good deck made - albeit an entry level model. They were made until sometime around 2005 and were still on sale a few years later. There must be lightly used ones around and at least one friend of mine has one NIB in his garage. I got one as a backup deck in 2004 and it performs much better than it has any right to at the price point.
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Old 11th Nov 2022, 11:20 pm   #120
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Default Re: What's good about tape?

I remember often making tapes of songs from my Dad's record collection.

Once I put together one of New Romantic songs, & took it along when I went for a drive with a friend who had recently leaned to drive & was borrowing his parent's car. When we got to Gary Numan's Cars my friend was worried the tape was getting chewed up due to the odd sounds in it!
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