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Components and Circuits For discussions about component types, alternatives and availability, circuit configurations and modifications etc. Discussions here should be of a general nature and not about specific sets. |
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8th Dec 2021, 4:56 pm | #1 |
Heptode
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 900
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Early Unusual Transformer Design
I have a Regentone WIB battery eliminator that I’m going to try and restore as a project. But I have found it contains what is a most unusual transformer or at least I have never seen one similar. If you look at the outer windings these are iron and think this is used as the magnetic core. Can anyone enlighten me to the name for this style of transformer or provide any information about it. I was wondering if the transformer had an inner core ? Please see pictures attached. I am also making a video about the restoration
https://youtu.be/rPG3I4s7lf0 Thanks Chris
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8th Dec 2021, 5:13 pm | #2 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Stafford, Staffs. UK.
Posts: 2,532
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Reminds me of a more modern toroidal transformer. Can I just make out a former in there? Is it magnetic material?
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8th Dec 2021, 5:13 pm | #3 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
An inverted toroid, wire is in a cylinder which is easy to wind. The outer and inner core is all the iron bits which don't have to connect, easy to wind... until we had winding machines for toroids.
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8th Dec 2021, 5:34 pm | #4 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lynton, N. Devon, UK.
Posts: 7,082
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
As MM says!
Sometimes it's called a Hedgehog transformer. |
8th Dec 2021, 5:47 pm | #5 |
Heptode
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 900
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Ok a Hedgehog sounds like a good name to me. The problem I have is that the insulation has broken off the wiring right up to the point it enters the bobbin. Luckily I have managed to peel back some of the hedgehog spines to reveal the wire. Hoping to try and sleeve it with something. Better insulation test it first etc.
Thanks Chris
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8th Dec 2021, 6:15 pm | #6 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,015
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
There's a different spelling around and a photograph which tends to back it up.
https://www.antiqueradios.com/forums...c.php?t=123487 |
8th Dec 2021, 6:22 pm | #7 | |
Heptode
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 900
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Quote:
Chris
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8th Dec 2021, 6:27 pm | #8 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,015
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Yes I had never encountered these before.
It would seem that the Hedgehog name came first and the version which dropped the d was commercially made in America. Fascinating. Hopefully it's repairable. The outer looks bound with string and then taped. It should be possible to open it completely and get at the windings with luck. |
8th Dec 2021, 8:56 pm | #9 |
Heptode
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 900
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Managed to sleeve the old wiring and epoxied it down. It was a struggle getting the iron winding back down but done it now. The winding continuity and insulation resistance measures good for all windings. So I just have to see how it works on a live test. It would be interesting to measure the efficiency and look at the iron and copper losses compared to a modern transformer. I’m guessing efficiency wasn’t a consideration and it probably only supplied 20mA
Thanks regards Chris
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10th Dec 2021, 12:19 pm | #10 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,535
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Someone once told me (not the most traceable source if information, I know) that the difference in efficiency between a power transformer with an open ended iron wire core and one with a laminated core closed magnetic path was only a matter of a few percent.
So for low power this odd TX should be fine.
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10th Dec 2021, 1:47 pm | #11 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lynton, N. Devon, UK.
Posts: 7,082
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Ah, but this configuration isn't open-ended, it's still a closed iron path with the ends of the wires going through the winding's centre pole bent around the outside so they overlap.
(True mains transformers with a magnetic path completed by air do exist, but they are very few and far between. Coupling between primary and secondary is crummy, and the huge number of turns needed to get sufficient inductance to stop the no-load current being Sky-high means that winding resistances are large). |
10th Dec 2021, 2:12 pm | #12 | |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Quote:
David
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10th Dec 2021, 3:35 pm | #13 |
Hexode
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: W Yorks, UK.
Posts: 407
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
So all those things that look like windings are actually forming the iron 'core'?
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10th Dec 2021, 3:57 pm | #14 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Ferrite rods are leaky, that's how the radio waves get in.
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10th Dec 2021, 4:46 pm | #15 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lynton, N. Devon, UK.
Posts: 7,082
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
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10th Dec 2021, 5:50 pm | #16 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
It is just like a Ferroxcube core.
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10th Dec 2021, 7:18 pm | #17 |
Heptode
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 900
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
I am not a transformer expert but Is there any interresting test I can do on the transformer. I was thinking of finding the turns ratio and maybe having a look at the iron and copper losses. The specification also says 50 to 100Hz so maybe a frequency sweep. I guessing back in the 1930 there was still big variations in the electrical supplies.
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10th Dec 2021, 8:05 pm | #18 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Lynton, N. Devon, UK.
Posts: 7,082
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
If you connect the transformer to a variable supply (with a voltmeter across the supply to be sure you're hitting it with full voltage) via a wattmeter, leaving the secondary completely open-circuit, the power drawn is virtuall all core (iron) losses. (The primary current is relatively low, and secondary currents are zero, so winding losses are negligible).
Then if you dump the voltmeter in parallel, but put an ammeter in series, and this time short-circuit the secondary, wind up the input till you see the normal loaded primary current drawn. This time the voltage is low, so the magnetism in the core is low and iron losses will be negligible. The figure on your wattmeter thus will be copper losses. Add the two figures together to get total losses at full voltage and full load. |
10th Dec 2021, 8:12 pm | #19 | |
Heptode
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Yorkshire, UK.
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Quote:
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10th Dec 2021, 8:39 pm | #20 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Surrey, UK.
Posts: 4,396
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Re: Early Unusual Transformer Design
Something rings a bell about Mr. Faraday's first transformer (or at least a demonstration item) having a bundle of iron wires as its core. "Sorry Mike, no lams here, no-one's invented a use for them yet...."
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