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Old 12th Jun 2022, 10:31 am   #1
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Default Compton Amp Circuit

Hi folks

Thought this might be of use to someone, it's the circuit diagram of the compton amp.

Ken
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Old 12th Jun 2022, 1:02 pm   #2
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Default Re: Compton Amp Circuit

It's fairly basic design, there are a few clues that it was designed for low cost considering the power, rather than for high fidelity - which is quite ironic considering how keen people are to tear them out of instruments. They're victim of the 'I've got to have a valve amp, any valve amp!' syndrome. Designed for and well suited for their intended use.

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Old 12th Jun 2022, 11:49 pm   #3
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Default Re: Compton Amp Circuit

It is ultra linear though!! It might sound quite good.

Joe
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Old 15th Jun 2022, 1:51 am   #4
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I guess this is the circuit for the amplifier that was offered in the for sale section recently and there was a bit of an interesting discussion on it. It looks like someone has reverse engineered it and drawn out the circuit.

I said in that thread that I'd also got a similar one. I've not long ago had a bit of a late night crawl around in the loft, particularly now things have cooled down a bit up there - I needed to find a special connector cable that I was pretty sure was up there and also took the opportunity to put some other items back up there that were getting in the way. Anyway, while up there I had a quick look at this supposed Compton amplifier and from what I could see it's a little different to the one shown in the for sale thread in that there's just one EF86 (missing on my particular amplifier and I remembered that it had gone to air, so assume that I must have removed it when I last looked at it over a decade ago) and where the second EF86 would be is a 12AX7 and the chassis is labelled as such. Where the ECC83(12AX7) would be on the 'for sale' thread amplifier, is what looks to be a round microphone or pickup transformer on my particular amplifier. There's a control panel with full volume and tone controls with gram/radio switching and mic input. This control panel matches the cream colour of the amplifier and is professionally engraved and has "Amplifier SH1086" engraved at the bottom of it. A 'Google' search throws up nothing and I now remember researching this model number years ago and found nothing then, this 'Compton' lead being the first positive identification regarding its manufacture.

I've never applied any power to this amplifier and I have racked my brains to try to remember exactly where I got it from. I'd always thought that I removed it from a large radiogram that I broke up back in the mid to late 70s, but I really can't be sure about this. I had at one time intended to pair it up with a Sterns Mullard 5-10 for a stereo setup, but ended up using the Sterns amplifier for something else - the transformers do look remarkably similar.

If there's interest I may dig it out from the loft and have a closer look at it and take some pictures. Whether to continue the discussion on this thread or possibly start a new one, I don't know, but perhaps try to keep all the Compton amplifier information in one place, hence for completeness I've posted a link to the previous thread where the discussion unfortunately ended rather abruptly:-
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=191464
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Old 15th Jun 2022, 1:58 am   #5
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Default Re: Compton Amp Circuit

I for one ( being an audio nerd ) would love to see more of it.
If that output transformer is the same size as that in the listed/mentioned thread, Its a big output transformer!!. AS Andy says in that thread, could be an organ amp. To get a full register on an organ required LOTS of iron.

Thankyou in advance Techman.

Joe
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Old 15th Jun 2022, 2:17 am   #6
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Default Re: Compton Amp Circuit

OK Joe, we'll see what we can do!

Yes, the output transformer looks to be exactly the same as the one on the other amplifier. The mains transformer is also exactly the same other than it's a dull silver colour rather than cream on its shrouding, indicating that it's possibly a replacement - I did note that the rectifier valve is of 'alien' manufacture compared to the others, so perhaps there was a power supply fault years ago that took them both out.

Mine has a voltage selector on the right hand side of the chassis towards the rear - I can't see that part of the chassis in the picture on the other thread. There's a three pin Bulgin plug socket on the end of a fly lead, so it looks like it was built into a large cabinet and this would have been the mains connection. When I get to take a closer look at it in the next day or so I may find evidence of other connections going to this socket - we'll see. The cables were all wrapped around it and it was awkward to see properly.
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Old 15th Jun 2022, 3:54 pm   #7
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Default Re: Compton Amp Circuit

Does anyone have any thoughts on the rationale in having the triode wired EF86 in the cathodyne phase splitter role? I suppose there is one EF86 already being used for the driver, so it might just have been easiest to pop in another one to satisfy phase splitter duty.
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Old 15th Jun 2022, 5:13 pm   #8
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Just very quickly - I just nipped up into the loft and grabbed the amplifier. Now I knew exactly where it was I was able to quickly grab it and get back down before I melted - it's turned dull this afternoon, so not as hot as it could have been up there!

Just the one picture to be going on with for now, just as it's been in storage for many years. I'm busy with something else at the moment, so I'll try to get it all un-ravelled and cleaned up a bit for some better 'all-round' pictures later, but I think we can all agree that it's from the same stable as the 'known' Compton one.
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Old 16th Jun 2022, 1:28 pm   #9
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I've cleaned the amplifier up a bit and had a really close look at the circuitry.

There's one thing I can definitely confirm, and that is that this amplifier has never been in, or been removed from an organ. As can be seen, it clearly says "Gramophone Amplifier" on it and all the solder connections on both the front panel and the amplifier, plus all the interconnections have the original, undisturbed factory lacquer/paint seals on all of these connections. Difficult to see, but it says Serial number 76 on top of the chassis, the one in the other thread can be seen to be Serial number 100, so mine is a little older, although both quite low numbers. As on the other amplifier, the two holes can be seen in the chassis top were where the chassis was bolted down to the cabinet.

So this has thrown a bit of a spanner in the works regarding these amplifiers all originating from Compton organs. It's been stated that John Compton Organ Company made the amplifiers 'in-house', well if that's the case then they also made amplifiers for other uses as well as for organs. Or it could be that they didn't actually make these amplifiers and that they were sourced in from a third party amplifier manufacturer - what do we all think? We need some input from Lucien for his thoughts on this one.

The transformer windings all appear to check out and it's ultra-linear...But, there's one anomaly regarding the output transformer 'secondary' - I'll let you all guess what that might be! That 'Bulgin' is the speaker output and not the mains input and there's signs of other connections that have been cut off on the back of it. Note the fuse holder on top of the chassis (original fitment) that is in the mains transformer secondary HT centre tap. The mains lead is the thick green fabric covered rubber insulated three core.

The round transformer marked as L430 is an input matching transformer and looks to have the snipped off remains of connections that would have gone to a mic socket somewhere - there appears to be another screened lead going from the rear of the front panel that would have gone to a record deck. The rear of the mains switch shows evidence of another pair of cut off wires that would have been the mains supply to said record deck. Also note how the main tag board has been specially manufactured with a 'cut-off' angle to allow for access below that round matching transformer, so all original design and not a modified ex-organ amplifier.

There's evidence of repairs by an 'old timer' repair man! The solder connections to the main smoothing can have all been off at some time and the Hunts electrolytic under the clip is a 50s/60s replacement. It's possible that the green cathode decoupling capacitor for the output valves is also a replacement, although there are slight traces of that red paint still to be seen on the solder. The really funny thing is that the grey capacitor that can be seen is a 60s replacement for one of the output valve black Hunts grid coupling capacitors and not only has the 'old timer' managed to melt part of it with the soldering iron while fitting it, he didn't replace the other one at the same time, although he did make a good melt mark on it, just for good measure to show that he'd been there!

It looks like there may possibly have been a catastrophic failure back in the amplifiers early life, perhaps due to that coupling capacitor. This may have caused the rectifier to go into meltdown, not enough to blow that centre tap fuse, but enough to cause the anodes to collapse together, shorting out both ends of the mains transformer secondary - I've seen this happen before and that's what happens, so I think the transformer is an exact original replacement, although obviously lacking the original 'amplifier' manufacturers coat of identifying cream paint.

Just to add - yes, the single EF86 is triode connected as the phase splitter the same as in the other amplifier.

Pictures below:-
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Old 16th Jun 2022, 3:52 pm   #10
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It turns out that both mine and the amplifier in the other thread have featured on this forum before, with pictures of the underside of the other one and one of mine languishing up in the loft amongst a pile of old video recorders. I also put forward another possible source of my amplifier. I'd completely forgotten that I'd posted about it and shown it before - link below:-
https://vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=136726
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Old 16th Jun 2022, 11:34 pm   #11
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Default Re: Compton Amp Circuit

This thread gets more and more interesting!!. Its still a nice amplifier by the look of it. Pamphonica's version has a mach better array of capacitors (Mustards versus Hunts ), but whichever, its been prefessionally made. I cant work out about the output amplifier problem, but I suspect is 100 volt line, as the only impediment to a really nice candidate for an upgrade. I still cant believe the size of that output transformer for probably 14 watts, downhill, with a tailwind.

Joe
p.s. Thanks Techman for all the information.
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 12:32 am   #12
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I think those Mullard Mustard capacitors are the new replacements that were fitted in the other amplifier, also note the replacement small modern electrolytics, so guessing it would have originally had the black Hunts types.

I thought someone was going to say that they were guessing that someone in the past had applied mains to that Bulgin by mistake! Luckily, and hopefully not so, but the output transformer secondary rather than measuring just several ohms DC resistance, measures 45 ohms, so you're not far off in what you say. I can't believe that there isn't a low impedance winding on that transformer. What we can see is shown in the second picture below, with three wires appearing from the transformer, two yellow connected together and one black. The first picture just shows a complete picture of the whole unit with all its cables etc.
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 1:03 am   #13
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Yes, it does look like its line level with only one winding.
You could of course remove it from the chassis and remove the end bells and see if it has "inside " solder tags/ termination points for the secondaries.
IF it is a half decent UL traffo, I would expect to see at minimum of three, if not four or five secondaries.
I cant imagine that its only split once, as that wouldnt do much for coupling.

"Some " transformers made over here in the penal system, it was common to hide multiple secondaries so that people didnt muck about with OPT's. Phasing is of ultimate importance.
Still thinking ( yes! I know I shouldnt ) If it was line, AND UL, it might have been used as a dedicated headphone amplifier, with matching transformers at each listening station. I am just guessing of course, but that would explain the giant OPT. It would guarantee very acceptable intelligebility on the phones, perhaps with switch selectable taps to set comfortable volumes. There was mention of "language tapes ". UL would mean low distortion with close to maximum level obtainable.

Joe
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 1:42 am   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joebog1 View Post
it might have been used as a dedicated headphone amplifier, with matching transformers at each listening station. I am just guessing of course, but that would explain the giant OPT. It would guarantee very acceptable intelligebility on the phones, perhaps with switch selectable taps to set comfortable volumes. There was mention of "language tapes ". UL would mean low distortion with close to maximum level obtainable.
I think that's it.

While there 'was' a large radiogram that got broken up, there was also a 50s language lab that got dismantled and gutted and I helped one of the chaps involved in it at the time move some large Ferrograph tape decks with my van and was given some odd bits and pieces for my trouble. I do remember the skip full of tapes, all boxed and many in as new condition. There must have been thousands of them and I got the lot, only to have to ditch most of them when I moved house years later. I kept one box full and I'm still using them - all Scotch brand. The building where this was still exists, but it's a nightclub now.

I think the transformer will have to come off for some investigation. It just shows that what we think we knew isn't always the case in so many ways. For decades I thought that this was an ordinary standard amplifier, but I'd never done anything with it in all those years. And also what we thought we knew about Compton only making organ amplifiers has now been disproved - it's another bit of history that's been re-written, a bit like my recent thread on the Murphy Radio signal generator that ended up re-writing some of the Murphy test gear history. They say that things come in 'threes', so I wonder what's going to be the third thing I turn up that proves to be not what we all thought
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Old 19th Jun 2022, 6:07 pm   #15
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So this is basically a PA amplifier. In another thread where folk were showing their PA amplifiers, I think I stated that I didn't possess any 'valve' PA amplifiers, only solid state examples. However, this one has been sitting around for the last four decades and there was me thinking/assuming that it was a standard low impedance/normal speaker output type for all this time!

I've opened up the transformer and found extra connections as can be seen below. The lowest DC resistance I can find between any windings is just over 20 ohms, so guessing some paralleling will be needed, obviously getting phasing correct - what do we reckon?
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Old 19th Jun 2022, 6:20 pm   #16
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Default Re: Compton Amp Circuit

Unless you're sure that windings have exactly the same number of turns, don't put them in parallel. If they are different, you get a shorted turn effect

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Old 19th Jun 2022, 7:26 pm   #17
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Yes, I was thinking about that, but also thinking that I might be able to get away with it seeing as it's an audio output transformer and remembering that they can happily be shorted out on the secondary without damage. Shorting out the low impedance speaker windings is actually better than leaving them open circuit. Trying to parallel up audio output transformer secondary windings isn't something I've ever done, or even thought about before, but the difference that there's bound to be, even if only slight could cause problems that I haven't thought about. Thanks for the input.
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Old 20th Jun 2022, 8:40 pm   #18
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Williamson was quite ok wiring secondaries in parallel but that may have been because they were wound between primary windings? http://www.r-type.org/articles/art-107c.htm
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Old 21st Jun 2022, 12:03 am   #19
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@Techman

Please do not modify or re-purpose this amplifier. There is a strong chance that it is the only surviving example of a non-organ electronic product from this stable. I have been collecting and researching all things Compton for many years and have never seen its like. Before coming to any conclusions, please could you get the date codes from the capacitors. I see half a dozen that will have codes.

First it is worth relating some background of the EL84 amp in the general scheme of things. In theory it was used in three models, Sonatina, HE/1 and HE/3, potentially one or two more that never actually saw the light of day. However the HE's were home entertainment organs, a market which Compton stayed tended to steer clear of but occasionally dabbled in, so made only in very small numbers (in the organ world this can mean just half a dozen. I have only ever seen one HE/3 (mine) and no HE/1's although at least one was made as I have seen an old photo of part of the inside of it.) The Sonatina was therefore almost the exclusive application for this amp, made from perhaps 1963-1970, with late examples being equipped with a 10W transistor amp. It was a very small, basic instrument intended for applications such as choir practice rooms and small chapels, with some specific features to make it easier for non-organ-playing pianists to handle. It was not really a fully fledged church organ, having one manual and no pedals, and sound reproduction via internal speakers only. Therefore the EL84 amplifier was never intended to fill a substantial church with sound, nor reproduce heavy pedal tones. By contrast, the big models of the late 1940s had four pairs of KT66s and with the aid of 18-inch drivers in 30 cubic foot cabinets, most certainly could.

As you will see from Ken's diagram the inputs are a bit peculiar with two separate first stages. This arrangement was inherited from the bi-amplification system that Compton used in most larger instruments to minimise intermodulation. The outputs of generator pitches above and below middle C were amplified and reproduced by separate amps and speaker cabinets. In this 10W amp and the next size up used in other consoles with built-in speakers, only a single power amp was used but the high-impedance electrostatic generator outputs still needed to be buffered separate front-ends. A few components were different between the two channels, to give different pass bands. After this stage the signals were mixed before being sent off-chassis to the swell control, which unusually on this and again the next size up were implemented with pots.

Now onto how the 'gramophone amplifier' might have come into existence.

First I will say that I do not have proof that these chassis were completely made in Minerva Road. Some work was contracted out but unusually for a firm that started out as pipe-organ builders they were very self sufficient, moulding their own bakelite components etc. This was due to the fact that they worked on a larger volume of production than most UK competitors, and progressed rapidly into technological developments from the late 1920s on to a state of pre-eminince in the cinema and entertainment markets in the 1930s. I must research the topic of subcontractors further, although information sources are very scarce for this later period.

As organ builders who started off building pipe-organs and were one of the very few to build both pipe and electronic instruments, Compton were no strangers to making one-offs; many pipe organs were unique individuals. At the very top of the market you could order one-off electronic organs too, and Compton would build anything your heart desired. For example, I have an instrument called the 'Draper' model, that was designed to meet the specifications of a customer called Mr. Draper. It was such a success that they went on to make about five more units of generally the same spec, but they were all different in detail. I have a file of factory build sheets that discuss customer requirements, in some cases right down to the preferred colours of labels etc.

The reason I mention this is that if one were to approach them and ask to have some customised version of an amplifier they already made, it would probably have been second nature to make it, unlike a major electronics manufacturer who would not entertain such an idea. In this context, there is little difference between a prototype and a special order. If you want one of something, you get the prototype. If you want two, you get the prototype and a production run of one. But who would think to order a PA amplifier from Compton?

Possibility #1. It was a special for a church, for their meeting rooms etc. Perhaps as a sweetener, or just because it seemed like a good idea at the time. "Dear Mr. Lord, please can we have the second open diapason a bit narrower in scale and while you're at it, can you make us a little PA system?"

1966 brought some major changes and the beginning of the end. The original firm was wound up, the pipe-organ division was sold to Rushworth and Dreaper, and the electronic side of the business became part of a company called EPTA headed by Col. Peathey-Johns, ex. asst. director of electronics at the War Office and of Gresham Lion Electronics. EPTA took over part of the Acton works for their enterprises, although I have scarcely any indication what those amounted to. In the five years between the takeover and the day in 1971 when EPTA went bankrupt taking Compton with it, they did nonetheless turn out some new products. In fact one of their best little organs appeared right at the end when it was much too late to save the sinking ship.

Again the reason I go into this at length is to set the scene for the day when some contact from the EPTA side of things asks the Colonel if his chaps wouldn't mind making up an amp for their village hall / language lab / destroyer / whatever. Why would they use a valve amp at this late stage? Because they could. In 1964, if you ordered a model 357 organ, it came with an ultra-linear valve amp of 1963 design. If you ordered a model 352, you got the previous design of pentode-connected amp instead. The UL amp was better and would have been a direct drop-in replacement, but probably just due to inertia, they kept on building the older amp for the older model. It would not therefore surprise me one bit if the gram amp was actually supplied to the customer post-1966, despite it having been replaced with a solid-state design in the then-current models of organ.

Possibility #2: It was supplied to or via EPTA, despite being past its theoretical technical obsolescence by then.

And of course
Possibility #3: It was made by a subcontractor who was doing chassis for the J.C.O.C. at the time.

E2A I have also thought of
Possibility #4: It was a 'home office' job made in Acton out of Compton bits but not officially supplied by them. I can well imagine foreman Fred Allen doing that, he had a propensity to build amplifiers on Compton chassis. But Fred is another story.

Let's have those cap date codes and I will ramble on at more length soon. Also are the legends on the control panel engraved? If so I need to look at the font carefully and see if it matches any of Compton's normal engraving.

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Old 21st Jun 2022, 2:00 am   #20
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With histories recounted like that, a company almost seems to live again...

It's also likely that a transistor amplifier introduced with a new model wouldn't automatically be used to update new production of older models in order to save on the work of updating service information to cover both amplifier variants in the same model number. With their small-scale production and the need for serial numbers before any service work, then maybe this isn't such a show-stopper.

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