UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Television and Video

Notices

Vintage Television and Video Vintage television and video equipment, programmes, VCRs etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 17th May 2022, 11:10 am   #1
IKC2E51R8
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Dublin, Republic of Ireland.
Posts: 492
Default At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

First off my apologies for the amount of threads on this set and its faults, if this needs to be moved to one of the others please do so....

This fault I just cant track down, ive shown it before on another thread and today I've uploaded two videos to YouTube to better illustrate the issue and I'll try to describe the problem as much as possible also for better clarity.

https://youtube.com/shorts/RI1aZd-bBJI?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/B1YL8FiqRGc?feature=share

As you can see in the videos the bottom half of the screen 'wobbles' which is also intermittent it only does it sometimes (usually when warm but not always) the constant fault is the E/W not right but im not exactly sure its an E/W fault at this stage.

Parts replaced so far (with no improvement) are as follows:

LG11
IG01
CG06
CG11
All pots at rear (PL01 PF02 PF14 PG02 PG08 PG12)
CL43
CL48
CL44
RL46
DL22
DL21
CP41
CP42
CL58
DL46
DL41

Reflowed all IC's and most of the board in fact.

There's also an intermittent 'hum' bar issue that comes and goes whenever it feels like and only 'activates' on moving pictures if you pause the content the bars disappear it might be related to the fault or something entirely different thats wrong also.

after changing all the parts above the issue is still present and appears to be getting worse (more frequent than it previously was particularly with the picture wobbling as in the videos)

The set will keep running for hours in this way as if there is nothing wrong so the Power processor may not be detecting any massive fluctuations in supply because if it was am I correct in saying it would call for the set to shut down and go into its 3 trips fault?

At this stage I think its power supply related but not sure where I should be looking and dont want to do a blanket recap if I dont have to.

Can anyone please view the videos and advise if you've seen an ICC5 or indeed any other set behave like this and what the solution was or could be please.

I Don't have a scope which i know limits my fault finding abilities, all I have is a DMM.

Would greatly appreciate any help offered
__________________
Cheers,
Luke
IKC2E51R8 is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 11:57 am   #2
HamishBoxer
Dekatron
 
HamishBoxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: W.Butterwick, near Doncaster UK.
Posts: 8,923
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

I am guessing this is nothing to do with the incoming video? from what ever source.
__________________
G8JET BVWS Archivist and Member V.M.A.R.S
HamishBoxer is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 12:00 pm   #3
IKC2E51R8
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Dublin, Republic of Ireland.
Posts: 492
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamishBoxer View Post
I am guessing this is nothing to do with the incoming video? from what ever source.
Nope, Video is perfect on any other TV, also used different cables to rule out the cables being at fault. Source is from a PS3 connected via Sony's Analog connector to Scart.
__________________
Cheers,
Luke
IKC2E51R8 is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 12:26 pm   #4
HamishBoxer
Dekatron
 
HamishBoxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: W.Butterwick, near Doncaster UK.
Posts: 8,923
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

It was just a long shot. For the record, the last ICC5 I had in for repair, got thrown across my workshop! One chassis I really hate.
__________________
G8JET BVWS Archivist and Member V.M.A.R.S
HamishBoxer is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 1:22 pm   #5
IKC2E51R8
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Dublin, Republic of Ireland.
Posts: 492
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamishBoxer View Post
It was just a long shot. For the record, the last ICC5 I had in for repair, got thrown across my workshop! One chassis I really hate.
The chassis itself seems to be quite resilient at least the one in this set considering what its been through and the amount of times ive had it out of the set for fault finding im honestly surprized it even still turns on. The tube has plenty of life left in it and the sound quality is unmatched in my experience so once this problem is sorted it will be a fantastic set.

Its just this one problem I cant nail down.

Forgot to mention and it may or may not be relevant but the two wire wound resistors beside the Filter cap... RP28 and RP23 are getting extremely hot after just a few minutes of the set running, I imagine these resistors would get hot anyway just from the design but the heat they are generating after 5 minutes is too much to even touch them even 5-10 minutes after powering off. Should they be replaced or could something in the power supply be causing them to get so Hot and possibly causing this fault?
__________________
Cheers,
Luke
IKC2E51R8 is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 3:49 pm   #6
Heatercathodeshort
Dekatron
 
Heatercathodeshort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING.
Posts: 9,145
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

Quote:
Originally Posted by HamishBoxer View Post
It was just a long shot. For the record, the last ICC5 I had in for repair, got thrown across my workshop! One chassis I really hate.
The ICC5 was the best one of the lot! Unfortunately the care home for ICC repair guys closed it's doors just before Christmas when the last inmate finally passed away when someone gave him a service manual for an ICC17 thinking it would revive happy memories. When these nightmares were released in 1989 the fun went out of the trade. Things to come.. We could have coped if the wretched things had not been infested with surface mount! John.
Heatercathodeshort is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 5:00 pm   #7
MALC SCOTT
Octode
 
MALC SCOTT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Willington, County Durham, UK.
Posts: 1,498
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

The main pcb may have become conductive. They do run quite hot around the line o/p area, Malc.
__________________
Malc Scott
MALC SCOTT is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 5:35 pm   #8
theredhouseinn
Hexode
 
theredhouseinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kelvedon, Essex, UK.
Posts: 272
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

Looking at the video the bottom of the screen is not wobbling it is expanding as though the line scan is increasing intermittently towards the end of the frame scan. My guess is that you have an intermittent shorted turns in the line scan coils.
I am thinking back 60 years now when I was a t/v engineer so the memory is a bit vague.
John.
theredhouseinn is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 5:58 pm   #9
IKC2E51R8
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Dublin, Republic of Ireland.
Posts: 492
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredhouseinn View Post
Looking at the video the bottom of the screen is not wobbling it is expanding as though the line scan is increasing intermittently towards the end of the frame scan. My guess is that you have an intermittent shorted turns in the line scan coils.
I am thinking back 60 years now when I was a t/v engineer so the memory is a bit vague.
John.
Is there anyway I could test if this is the case? I would hope its not the scan coils.
__________________
Cheers,
Luke
IKC2E51R8 is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 6:48 pm   #10
IKC2E51R8
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Dublin, Republic of Ireland.
Posts: 492
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

I've just confirmed its not the Scan coils anyway, took the chassis out and put it in my 59P7 and its exhibiting the same behaviour.

Also the RIFA that I thought Id changed in the 59P7 popped soon after so now I currently have the fan on full whack trying to get rid of the smoke and stink. How those caps were ever allowed in any consumer device is beyond me
__________________
Cheers,
Luke
IKC2E51R8 is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 9:09 pm   #11
Philips210
Nonode
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Redruth, Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 2,562
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

Hi.

I don't think it's a sync fault but perhaps a deflection problem. I was also thinking along the lines of the line scan coils as John suggested in post #8. I wondered if the S correction capacitor could be playing up. There could be an intermittent MELF resistor in the EW circuit, Those surface mount resistors could crack and cause intermittent faults.

Ah yes, those RIFA class X2 capacitors = REEKER capacitors!

Regards,
Symon

Last edited by Philips210; 17th May 2022 at 9:23 pm.
Philips210 is offline  
Old 17th May 2022, 11:13 pm   #12
IKC2E51R8
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Dublin, Republic of Ireland.
Posts: 492
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philips210 View Post
Hi.

I don't think it's a sync fault but perhaps a deflection problem. I was also thinking along the lines of the line scan coils as John suggested in post #8. I wondered if the S correction capacitor could be playing up. There could be an intermittent MELF resistor in the EW circuit, Those surface mount resistors could crack and cause intermittent faults.

Ah yes, those RIFA class X2 capacitors = REEKER capacitors!

Regards,
Symon
I thought after John suggested that it could be the coils but since ive now ruled that out I'm wondering where else to look.

I haven't actually given any attention to the MELF components so I'm glad you pointed that out, tomorrow after work I'll have a look at the ones in and around the E/W area and see if i can spot any damaged ones and I'll test as best i can with the meter.

S-Correction cap has been changed but admittedly it came from another set of similar age as I found it difficult to source the same cap new so it could also be faulty though it measured good prior to me installing it in the set.

Is it possible it could be the Power Processor IL14 the TEA2029C causing it?
__________________
Cheers,
Luke
IKC2E51R8 is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 9:35 am   #13
Graham G3ZVT
Dekatron
 
Graham G3ZVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 18,676
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

Looks like timing errors due to a non broadcast quality signal (typically VHS playback, is that the source?)

I don't know this particular set, but often there is one particular channel number that switches in a shorter sync time constant, often as not channel "8"

If the set pre-dates the home video era, a modification may be required.

Another possibility is an unintended consequence of Macrovision copy protection if you are playing a commercial tape.

As an aside, I must say that the bottom left is an unusual place for a cue-dot.

<edit>
Having just watched the second of the two video clips and seen how the picture snaps in and out of the fault condition, I am a lot less confident of my assertion, you'll probebly tell me it's not even a tape source!
__________________
--
Graham.
G3ZVT

Last edited by Graham G3ZVT; 18th May 2022 at 9:51 am.
Graham G3ZVT is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 11:21 am   #14
eddie_ce
Hexode
 
eddie_ce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: nr. Hannover, Germany
Posts: 372
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

I used to live just down the road from the Telefunken (Thomson) television factory in Celle where a few mates worked in the QC/service department. They described the many problems they had when MELF components were first introduced. Mechanical stresses, often due to temperature changes led to hairline, almost invisible cracks causing all sorts of problems. So personally I wouldn't rule out a MELF problem.

Just my two cents worth.
__________________
Eddie
BVWS Member.
Friend of the BVWTM
eddie_ce is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 8:12 pm   #15
IKC2E51R8
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Dublin, Republic of Ireland.
Posts: 492
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
Looks like timing errors due to a non broadcast quality signal (typically VHS playback, is that the source?)

I don't know this particular set, but often there is one particular channel number that switches in a shorter sync time constant, often as not channel "8"

If the set pre-dates the home video era, a modification may be required.

Another possibility is an unintended consequence of Macrovision copy protection if you are playing a commercial tape.

As an aside, I must say that the bottom left is an unusual place for a cue-dot.

<edit>
Having just watched the second of the two video clips and seen how the picture snaps in and out of the fault condition, I am a lot less confident of my assertion, you'll probebly tell me it's not even a tape source!
Source in the videos I posted is from a Playstation 3 fed through the scart socket. Set behaves the same way via the Tuner
__________________
Cheers,
Luke
IKC2E51R8 is offline  
Old 18th May 2022, 11:51 pm   #16
Philips210
Nonode
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Redruth, Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 2,562
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

Quote:
Originally Posted by IKC2E51R8 View Post
Is it possible it could be the Power Processor IL14 the TEA2029C causing it?
Hi.

I guess that's a possibility since it's associated with the EW circuit. You've got a very tricky fault to solve. It will not be easy to pin down and not having a 'scope doesn't help. I would get a decent magnifier and light and have a thorough inspection of the main PCB particularly around areas that run hot. You may find a crusty solder joint that's definitely suspect. Look out for any signs of cracks in the MELF components. If the chassis has had any rough handling in the past there may well be an intermittent MELF component. Also don't rule out the possibility of a crack in the main PCB again around hot running areas.
Something to bear in mind when reflowing solder joints on MELF components is possible heat stress which can cause cracks.

Maybe hook up an analogue voltmeter in the EW circuit to try and detect any fluctuations. The ICC5 chassis was notorious for EW faults. Normally I'd say give the chassis a tap to envoke the fault but that may cause more harm than good with all those MELF parts.

It's also feasible that an electrolytic cap in the power supply or line output stage could be causing this fault but I'm thinking it's more of a line output rather than a PSU fault. I'd also look out for signs of a leaking electrolytic cap. The LOPTx though generally reliable in the ICC5 may be causing this but again thoroughly check for dry joints.
With some through-hole components it's not adequate to just reflow the joint but the component leadout wires may first need scraping and then a good hot iron to reflow. I'm thinking this used to happen typically to line drive transformers in some makes of TV.

Good luck with it.

Regards,
Symon
Philips210 is offline  
Old 21st May 2022, 9:09 am   #17
samjmann
Heptode
 
samjmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Nottingham, UK.
Posts: 645
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

I personally would not have thought that this is incoming signal problems. Without E-W correction the picture becomes very distorted in the shape of a pin-cushion. The E-W modulator constantly corrects the scan width at field rate. From what I could see on the clip, it was the picture width that was varying at the bottom rather than a sync related issue. As said, difficult without a 'scope.

What I'm trying to say is that the EW modulator drive must have some incorrect 50Hz content on it that is only 'twitching' towards the end of each field scan. I remember an odd EW fault years back, the supply rail to the EW circuit had line-rate ripple to it. The modulator still sort of worked, but the electroytic that filtered the line-rate pulses was o/c.

Have you another ICC5 to compare it with?

If you thought the ICC5 was bad the 17 was even worse. Some issues of the circuit diagram were wrong, wrong connections in the protect network...

A basic CRT scope will make life much easier. You'll find it easy to use and great on future projects too.

All the best, SJM.
__________________
It's never been right since we've had it...
samjmann is offline  
Old 21st May 2022, 11:06 am   #18
HamishBoxer
Dekatron
 
HamishBoxer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: W.Butterwick, near Doncaster UK.
Posts: 8,923
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

I thought this SJM, but it is stated that incoming signal is fine on other sets.
__________________
G8JET BVWS Archivist and Member V.M.A.R.S
HamishBoxer is offline  
Old 21st May 2022, 2:30 pm   #19
Heatercathodeshort
Dekatron
 
Heatercathodeshort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING.
Posts: 9,145
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

For what it's worth I used to experience odd weird faults when the switching transistors in the scart input [BC848?] used to go leaky. It was a long time ago but I seem to remember there are very many pages of faults listed by Thorn in their service notes. I used to file the 'FERGUSON FEEDBACK' but it appears I dumped them when I closed the shop. To be honest I was glad to see the back of the ICC. J.
Heatercathodeshort is offline  
Old 21st May 2022, 4:14 pm   #20
samjmann
Heptode
 
samjmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Nottingham, UK.
Posts: 645
Default Re: At my wits end with ICC5 Picture Fault

A video of the BBC test card might be the best to show the width variations. There are test card web sites you could access via the Sony PS. SJM.
__________________
It's never been right since we've had it...
samjmann is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 3:39 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.