Teleton valve CTV - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Hunts smoothing bomb · 9th May 2006, 11:59 am

High all,

I bought a small portable valve CTV at the NVCF for £15 and there are a few questions I would like to ask....

The set works well but on first powering up picture was dim and convergance was terrible after playing about and having the set on for about 8 hours yesterday the picture is now alot brighter,(convergance still bad) why is this? is it the tube or the EHT rectifier?

Also I have no service data for the set and it also uses a set of very weird valves, all of which are original and are Toshiba branded The boost diode is a 9 pin jobby but with no anode cap. The weirdist is the line output bottle is 12 pin! the field output is also 12 pin quite fat but is a triode pentode!! I will post their ID numbers later, I really want to know weather they are scarce or still available.

Lastly, are there any general guide lines for setting up convergance? This is my first valve colour tellie and I went in all hammers and adjusted everything including the RGB yokes on the tube

......well about 8 hours later I had it all pretty good but it could be better
Any help/guidelines will greatly appreciated.

Regards
Lee

Steve_P · 9th May 2006, 2:16 pm

Hi There Hunts.

Quote:

Lastly, are there any general guide lines for setting up convergance? This is my first valve colour tellie and I went in all hammers and adjusted everything including the RGB yokes on the tube ......well about 8 hours later I had it all pretty good but it could be better...

Oh dear. Never mind, we've all done it!

If the Convergence Instructions aren't available, you need to do the following.

1: Switch the Colour off. On a picture, adjust the RGB Yokes for an OK picture.

2: Switch over to the Crosshatch generator and adjust for optimum performance on the static convergence. Don't forget the extra control on the tube neck for blue.

3: Turn off the Blue gun on the tube.

4: Now for all those controls! Adjust the Red/Green controls for optimum convergence, i.e. A Yellow line. You may need to do this several times.

5: Blue back on.

6: Adjust the Yellow Lines and the Blue Lines for a White Line. Again, may take several goes.

7: Be aware that in sets this old, a bit of Convergence Error is allowed. If the picture looks OK from about 5 feet it'll do. Seriously!

Quote:

The set works well but on first powering up picture was dim and convergance was terrible after playing about and having the set on for about 8 hours yesterday the picture is now alot brighter,(convergance still bad) why is this? is it the tube or the EHT rectifier?

Could be the EHT Diode, but likely to be the tube. Run it for a good while and see what happens. But don't leave it on and go elsewhere....

As for the valves, they are odd. I've never seen any, but others have. Tend to be quite reliable though.

Hope this helps,

Steve P

dazzlevision · 9th May 2006, 3:03 pm

Hello,

I remember this set. I repaired one in 1972! That was the one and only time - mercifully!

I think the "unusual" valves were a later development that never took place in Europe - probably USA based...?

This set, like the early Sonys, used a dodge to get around the PAL colour system patents. This is why there is a "hue" or "tint" control.

If you post the model number, it might help people to look out a service manual for you.

Regards,

Dazzlevision

Hunts smoothing bomb · 9th May 2006, 3:56 pm

Hi Dazzlevision.
Are you saying this set doesn't have a pal decoder?
I have a uhf modulator which works fine on modern CTV's but on the Teleton all the colours are totally wrong, greens are brown, blue's are pink and reds are blue/grey etc.
Does anyone know the year of the set too?
I will post a picture and valve numbering tomorrow.

Steve,
I may have my terminology wrong here because I said I adjusted the RGB yokes when I meant the red, blue and green thumbwheels on the tube neck which makes each colour kind of revolve in a circular motion, are these not the yokes? you mentioned the extra control on the tube neck for blue, do british sets only have one adjustable wheel on the neck for blue because this set has one for each of the three guns.Oh how confusing, I wish I didn't twiddle everything in sight! :-(

dazzlevision · 9th May 2006, 3:59 pm

Hello Hunts,

I saw this set at the NVCF last Sunday. I recognised it straight away! All efforts by the stallholder to persuade me to buy it were unsuccessful (phew!).

I'm pretty sure the set does NOT have a PAL decoder - like the early Sony colour TVs sold in the UK.

I think it was made around 1970.

Regards,

Dazzlevision

Hunts smoothing bomb · 9th May 2006, 4:00 pm

Forgot to add that all the colours are correct when the set is fed a proper uhf signal from a tv aerial

Steve_P · 9th May 2006, 4:42 pm

I've not actually seen one of these, but have read about them! These sets, among other colour sets we shan't mention, came into the UK to meet demand. Some were even rented (Granada, I think).

If all you've tweaked on the tube base is these, then simply reset them and carry on from step 3 of my instructions.

Sorry for stepping on your toes here Dazzlevision: The answer to Hunts question is 'No, they don't have a PAL decoder' - the Decoders in these are not PAL as they weren't prepared to pay for the licence to use them. And the final colour on these is a bit washed out even when they are fully aligned.

Now, get yourself a BRC2000 and you'll see real colour....

Cheers,

Steve P

Dual Standard · 9th May 2006, 5:14 pm

As the purveyor of this fine(?) piece of valve technology I am pleased to hear that it survived the journey to and from the NVCF.

The model is VX1110 and is covered in the 1973-74 edition of R&TVS, I have never seen a pukka manufacturers manual, though a google search for 'teleton vx1110' links to this http://www.instruction-manuals.co.uk.../tv/vx1110.htm

Dazzlevison & Steve are correct it does not use a PAL decoder for precisely the reasons stated by Steve, the decoder is covered in some detail in volume two (the green one) of Newnes Colour TV Servicing Manual by Gordon J King.

This is the only one of these Teletons that I have ever seen though there is a small photo of one on Mike Bennett's website http://www.tvmuseum.co.uk/
I originally purchased it from another member of this forum but as it had sat here for many months untouched I decided to make a little space by taking it to the NVCF.

I must add that Dazzlevison looked mighty relieved when he stopped at my stall late in the day and noticed the set had been sold!

Mike

Heatercathodeshort · 9th May 2006, 7:24 pm

Hello,
I sold these receivers when new and they were very well received. The decoder uses a standard PAL S arrangement and the colour reproduction was well up to standard. The valves used are TOSHIBA 'Compactrons', very strange valves with a high heater consumption.
These sets were dealt with a while back but the data may have been deleted. I have one of these sets still in good order in my collection. There were around 4 versions. Regards John.

jim_beacon · 9th May 2006, 7:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heatercathodeshort

The valves used are TOSHIBA 'Compactrons', very strange valves with a high heater consumption.

The Compactron was an RCA invention, they were some of the last valves developed for domestic Tv, and were intended to reduce the valve count in a colour set, by integrating several valves into one envelope - you will find, 3 or 4 valves in one envelope.

There is a design on the web for a three stage loudspeaker TRF that uses a single Compactron.

Jim.

Sideband · 9th May 2006, 8:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_P

'No, they don't have a PAL decoder' - the Decoders in these are not PAL as they weren't prepared to pay for the licence to use them. And the final colour on these is a bit washed out even when they are fully aligned.

Were these decoders called 'Simple PAL'?

I remember seeing these in the early 70's when I first started work and the colours didn't look 'quite right' compared to 'proper' sets

.

I seem to remember that Sony and Crown did the same thing.

Rich.

gdTV · 9th May 2006, 9:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard_Newman

Were these decoders called 'Simple PAL'?

That was certainly the way I always understood it. The ingenious 'scam' to get around the PAL licence costs, used mainly (solely?) by the Japanese at the time ,was to decode the chroma U & V signals without the use of a delay line, which was commonly referred to as Simple PAL, or PAL-S decoder. I seem to remember that the colour was fine, but more prone to spurious phase errors and hue shifts as a result of the simpler decoding.

The 'D' in PAL-D referring to the fact that the delay lines were incorporated.

Graham Davis

Mike Phelan · 10th May 2006, 8:10 am

I used to service these once, but most of it has gone into my forgettory, so please forgive any omissions and errors.

They were very reliable, and there was a manual available then. Colour was, er, average!
The weird valves did fail sometime, and AFAIK we got Pinnacle replacements.

The touch-tuning employed an oscillator that stopped when you touched a button. IIRC it used 74 TTL chips?

It was a simple PAL decoder; no delay line. This means that phase errors in the alternating U signal were averaged by the Mk1 eyeball, instead of using the delay line to separate the U and V signals by addition and subtraction before feeding them to the synchronous demodulators.
So, it needed a "tint" control to adjust the phase of the narrow-band chroma signal - sort of NTSC with ideas above its station.

Hunts smoothing bomb · 10th May 2006, 8:32 am

Sorry chaps,
photo's aren't great, I left my camera at work so had to use my phone.

The colours are actually not bad......alot better than the photo says anyway. Forgot to post the valve numbers, will do it after lunch when I go home.

Thanks for all your help and support, I just think it's such a shame that there is only a handfull of us "techie" types left with proper hobies!

Regards
Lee

Hunts smoothing bomb · 10th May 2006, 8:47 am

Would anyone out there be able to photocopy the service data and pm me for address as to where to send it. I will of course cover costs.
Many thanks.
Another thing I didn't mention is that I believe this set spent most of it's years sat on the counter of a chinese takeaway as when I got it home on Sunday I plugged it in and switched on

(well the seller told me it worked

) Anyhow after about 15 mins it started smelling of battered chicken balls

so I turned off and open the back to find the pcb, wires components all covered in rancid greece, the valves were absolutuly caked in it and there were acually runs where it had run down the sides of the horizontal bottles and collected into drips at the lowest point...uuugghhh.

Heatercathodeshort · 10th May 2006, 9:12 am

Hello,
I hope you did the politically correct thing and recycled it into your deep fat fryer.

Yes it was PAL S or simple PAL as we knew it.
The sets produced brilliant pictures and OK the colour fidelity was not technically perfect but very good and 99% of the public never noticed the slight colour corruption. They were pleasant to watch and were a cheap and reliable introduction to colour television for many families. I have a spare set of valves somewhere for mine. I used to get them direct from TOSHIBA at a very good price. Full service manuals were issued and I have the complete set of them somewhere....Regards John.

Hunts smoothing bomb · 10th May 2006, 1:08 pm

Hello again,

Here are the valves if anyone has spares

10GK6- (top left) output pentode, used for? (not sound, that's solid state)

3 x 8FQ7's- (middle, next right & bottom left) double triodes, video amps?

17JZ8 - (large valve in middle) triode pentode field output

6GH8A - (next to above) triode pentode (same pinout as pcf80) use?

31JS6A - (next right) line output

17DW4A - (next right) boost diode

3AT2 - (under pink cap in LOPT cage) EHT rectifier

If anyone has a set of valves new or proven good then I would be interested.

Thanks for all your help!

Lee

gdTV · 17th May 2006, 9:52 am

Hi Lee,

As I had the scanner out for a different thread, and the Green Book by Gordon J King to hand (as mentioned by Dual Standard previously), I've scanned the theory guide for Teleton's devious decoder!

Following the earlier discussion it may be of interest to you....

Graham

MALC SCOTT · 8th Aug 2006, 9:13 pm

The EHT rectifier valve, 3AT2, gives this type of problem:
This chassis uses the simple PAL colour decoder, i.e. does not use a PALl delay line.
You can just about get away with it on a set with a CRT of this size; different colours on every other line (Hanover bars) are visible on larger size tubes.
The set has a tint (hue) control to eliminate errors.
I have been using one of these sets for 20-odd years with no problems. I do not think that the metal cabinet would be allowed these days!!

9th May 2006, 11:59 am	#1
Hunts smoothing bomb Octode Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK. Posts: 1,407	Teleton valve CTV High all, I bought a small portable valve CTV at the NVCF for £15 and there are a few questions I would like to ask.... The set works well but on first powering up picture was dim and convergance was terrible after playing about and having the set on for about 8 hours yesterday the picture is now alot brighter,(convergance still bad) why is this? is it the tube or the EHT rectifier? Also I have no service data for the set and it also uses a set of very weird valves, all of which are original and are Toshiba branded The boost diode is a 9 pin jobby but with no anode cap. The weirdist is the line output bottle is 12 pin! the field output is also 12 pin quite fat but is a triode pentode!! I will post their ID numbers later, I really want to know weather they are scarce or still available. Lastly, are there any general guide lines for setting up convergance? This is my first valve colour tellie and I went in all hammers and adjusted everything including the RGB yokes on the tube ......well about 8 hours later I had it all pretty good but it could be better Any help/guidelines will greatly appreciated. Regards Lee __________________ Lee

9th May 2006, 3:03 pm	#3
dazzlevision Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Near Swindon, North Wiltshire, UK. Posts: 3,613	Re: Teleton valve CTV Hello, I remember this set. I repaired one in 1972! That was the one and only time - mercifully! I think the "unusual" valves were a later development that never took place in Europe - probably USA based...? This set, like the early Sonys, used a dodge to get around the PAL colour system patents. This is why there is a "hue" or "tint" control. If you post the model number, it might help people to look out a service manual for you. Regards, Dazzlevision

9th May 2006, 3:56 pm	#4
Hunts smoothing bomb Octode Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK. Posts: 1,407	Re: Teleton valve CTV Hi Dazzlevision. Are you saying this set doesn't have a pal decoder? I have a uhf modulator which works fine on modern CTV's but on the Teleton all the colours are totally wrong, greens are brown, blue's are pink and reds are blue/grey etc. Does anyone know the year of the set too? I will post a picture and valve numbering tomorrow. Steve, I may have my terminology wrong here because I said I adjusted the RGB yokes when I meant the red, blue and green thumbwheels on the tube neck which makes each colour kind of revolve in a circular motion, are these not the yokes? you mentioned the extra control on the tube neck for blue, do british sets only have one adjustable wheel on the neck for blue because this set has one for each of the three guns.Oh how confusing, I wish I didn't twiddle everything in sight! :-( __________________ Lee

9th May 2006, 3:59 pm	#5
dazzlevision Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Near Swindon, North Wiltshire, UK. Posts: 3,613	Re: Teleton valve CTV Hello Hunts, I saw this set at the NVCF last Sunday. I recognised it straight away! All efforts by the stallholder to persuade me to buy it were unsuccessful (phew!). I'm pretty sure the set does NOT have a PAL decoder - like the early Sony colour TVs sold in the UK. I think it was made around 1970. Regards, Dazzlevision

9th May 2006, 4:00 pm	#6
Hunts smoothing bomb Octode Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK. Posts: 1,407	Re: Teleton valve CTV Forgot to add that all the colours are correct when the set is fed a proper uhf signal from a tv aerial __________________ Lee

9th May 2006, 4:42 pm	#7
Steve_P Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 6,644	Re: Teleton valve CTV I've not actually seen one of these, but have read about them! These sets, among other colour sets we shan't mention, came into the UK to meet demand. Some were even rented (Granada, I think). If all you've tweaked on the tube base is these, then simply reset them and carry on from step 3 of my instructions. Sorry for stepping on your toes here Dazzlevision: The answer to Hunts question is 'No, they don't have a PAL decoder' - the Decoders in these are not PAL as they weren't prepared to pay for the licence to use them. And the final colour on these is a bit washed out even when they are fully aligned. Now, get yourself a BRC2000 and you'll see real colour.... Cheers, Steve P __________________ If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?

9th May 2006, 5:14 pm	#8
Dual Standard Hexode Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Cheshire, UK. Posts: 263	Re: Teleton valve CTV As the purveyor of this fine(?) piece of valve technology I am pleased to hear that it survived the journey to and from the NVCF. The model is VX1110 and is covered in the 1973-74 edition of R&TVS, I have never seen a pukka manufacturers manual, though a google search for 'teleton vx1110' links to this http://www.instruction-manuals.co.uk.../tv/vx1110.htm Dazzlevison & Steve are correct it does not use a PAL decoder for precisely the reasons stated by Steve, the decoder is covered in some detail in volume two (the green one) of Newnes Colour TV Servicing Manual by Gordon J King. This is the only one of these Teletons that I have ever seen though there is a small photo of one on Mike Bennett's website http://www.tvmuseum.co.uk/ I originally purchased it from another member of this forum but as it had sat here for many months untouched I decided to make a little space by taking it to the NVCF. I must add that Dazzlevison looked mighty relieved when he stopped at my stall late in the day and noticed the set had been sold! Mike

9th May 2006, 7:24 pm	#9
Heatercathodeshort Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING. Posts: 9,147	Re: Teleton valve CTV Hello, I sold these receivers when new and they were very well received. The decoder uses a standard PAL S arrangement and the colour reproduction was well up to standard. The valves used are TOSHIBA 'Compactrons', very strange valves with a high heater consumption. These sets were dealt with a while back but the data may have been deleted. I have one of these sets still in good order in my collection. There were around 4 versions. Regards John.

10th May 2006, 8:10 am	#13
Mike Phelan Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Near Leeds, West Yorkshire, UK Posts: 4,609	Re: Teleton valve CTV I used to service these once, but most of it has gone into my forgettory, so please forgive any omissions and errors. They were very reliable, and there was a manual available then. Colour was, er, average! The weird valves did fail sometime, and AFAIK we got Pinnacle replacements. The touch-tuning employed an oscillator that stopped when you touched a button. IIRC it used 74 TTL chips? It was a simple PAL decoder; no delay line. This means that phase errors in the alternating U signal were averaged by the Mk1 eyeball, instead of using the delay line to separate the U and V signals by addition and subtraction before feeding them to the synchronous demodulators. So, it needed a "tint" control to adjust the phase of the narrow-band chroma signal - sort of NTSC with ideas above its station. __________________ Mike.

10th May 2006, 8:32 am	#14
Hunts smoothing bomb Octode Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK. Posts: 1,407	Re: Teleton valve CTV Sorry chaps, photo's aren't great, I left my camera at work so had to use my phone. The colours are actually not bad......alot better than the photo says anyway. Forgot to post the valve numbers, will do it after lunch when I go home. Thanks for all your help and support, I just think it's such a shame that there is only a handfull of us "techie" types left with proper hobies! Regards Lee Attached Thumbnails __________________ Lee

10th May 2006, 8:47 am	#15
Hunts smoothing bomb Octode Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK. Posts: 1,407	Re: Teleton valve CTV Would anyone out there be able to photocopy the service data and pm me for address as to where to send it. I will of course cover costs. Many thanks. Another thing I didn't mention is that I believe this set spent most of it's years sat on the counter of a chinese takeaway as when I got it home on Sunday I plugged it in and switched on (well the seller told me it worked ) Anyhow after about 15 mins it started smelling of battered chicken balls so I turned off and open the back to find the pcb, wires components all covered in rancid greece, the valves were absolutuly caked in it and there were acually runs where it had run down the sides of the horizontal bottles and collected into drips at the lowest point...uuugghhh. __________________ Lee

10th May 2006, 9:12 am	#16
Heatercathodeshort Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING. Posts: 9,147	Re: Teleton valve CTV Hello, I hope you did the politically correct thing and recycled it into your deep fat fryer. Yes it was PAL S or simple PAL as we knew it. The sets produced brilliant pictures and OK the colour fidelity was not technically perfect but very good and 99% of the public never noticed the slight colour corruption. They were pleasant to watch and were a cheap and reliable introduction to colour television for many families. I have a spare set of valves somewhere for mine. I used to get them direct from TOSHIBA at a very good price. Full service manuals were issued and I have the complete set of them somewhere....Regards John.

10th May 2006, 1:08 pm	#17
Hunts smoothing bomb Octode Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Wimborne, Dorset, UK. Posts: 1,407	Re: Teleton valve CTV Hello again, Here are the valves if anyone has spares 10GK6- (top left) output pentode, used for? (not sound, that's solid state) 3 x 8FQ7's- (middle, next right & bottom left) double triodes, video amps? 17JZ8 - (large valve in middle) triode pentode field output 6GH8A - (next to above) triode pentode (same pinout as pcf80) use? 31JS6A - (next right) line output 17DW4A - (next right) boost diode 3AT2 - (under pink cap in LOPT cage) EHT rectifier If anyone has a set of valves new or proven good then I would be interested. Thanks for all your help! Lee Attached Thumbnails __________________ Lee

8th Aug 2006, 9:13 pm	#19
MALC SCOTT Octode Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Willington, County Durham, UK. Posts: 1,499	Re: Teleton valve CTV The EHT rectifier valve, 3AT2, gives this type of problem: This chassis uses the simple PAL colour decoder, i.e. does not use a PALl delay line. You can just about get away with it on a set with a CRT of this size; different colours on every other line (Hanover bars) are visible on larger size tubes. The set has a tint (hue) control to eliminate errors. I have been using one of these sets for 20-odd years with no problems. I do not think that the metal cabinet would be allowed these days!!