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Old 28th Nov 2015, 8:52 pm   #121
ms660
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Default Re: Pylons

I've had that link embedded in all my posts on another radio forum for quite a while, I put there 'cos it shows almost in real time what's going on generating wise.

As you say, Hydro makes only a small part of the mix.

Also so far as I understand it the percentages shown are what's metered by the national grid, there's a lot of solar,wind and maybe other outputs that are connected to the DNO's and so far as I can gather that shows up as a reduced demand on the national grid statistics on that site, eg: 5 gigawatts wind power generation add a gigawatt or two on top of that, that's what that site seems to imply.

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/index.php

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Old 28th Nov 2015, 9:05 pm   #122
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Default Re: Pylons

The big grid-related issue these days is that whereas historically the power-sources and power-sinks have been fairly well matched [you build the big predictable-output coal/gas-burning power-stations relatively close to the industrial and urban locations which have high power-consumption] the growth of 'renewables' means that this is no longer the case: having a bunch of wind-turbines in North-West Scotland or West Wales cracking out the power doesn't help you if the main load-points are Manchester or London. When there's a stable, high-pressure area sat for days on end solidly over most of the UK in winter your wind's essentially offline - equally, solar-power's not much use after dark - but it's this sort of weather that means it's cold and people turn on their heaters.

So now the grid is subject to a lot more dynamically-shifting sources/sinks - something it was not really designed at the outset to handle. The interconnects to Europe are handy [we can pull-in nice reliable French nudlear-generated juice] but these only work if Europe is not itself on the ragged-edge of their power budget.

I'm just glad that I have a generator and 1000 gallons of Diesel to see me through the winter.
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Old 28th Nov 2015, 9:24 pm   #123
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Default Re: Pylons

I have my own sneaky idea that the French interconnector was implemented to prop up our great capital, time to upgrade it again maybe.

I think long term HVDC might be a good part of the mix, the grid and power generation as it is is a bit of a mess me thinks.

Mass gas, coal or nuclear is the only way to meet base load, all the renewables as part of the mix are good in my opinion, one has to remember that it's early days yet ("them mobile phone brick things will never catch on")

It's all a challenge for the future as it was for Marconi, Tesla and countless others.

If the lights go out here I'll fire up the Tilly or the Coleman, we're on wood power for the heating so no worries.

I heard that the China has done some quite impressive HVDC links.

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Old 29th Nov 2015, 11:21 am   #124
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Default Re: Pylons

"having wind-turbines in North-West Scotland or West Wales cracking out the power doesn't help you if the main load-points are Manchester or London."

Looks like Manchester might be helped out if this gets completed:

http://www.westernhvdclink.co.uk/

I've that it would be the longest of it's type in world.

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Old 29th Nov 2015, 1:28 pm   #125
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Default Re: Pylons

Wow that is a jolly big power lead.
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Old 29th Nov 2015, 4:48 pm   #126
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Edison would be pleased, he never liked AC I believe.
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Old 29th Nov 2015, 5:46 pm   #127
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Default Re: Pylons

De-centralised power generation is my day job.

Speaking and dealing with DNOs all over the UK, the largest problem to small scale embedded generation in areas of high population density is that of excessive local voltage rise, once you sync a generating plant to a local grid that is almost at saturation, and therefore heavily loaded, the sudden removal of 1/2 a MW of load causes the local voltage to rise, this can then translate to a problem on the HV network, which can then cause nuisance tripping of the HV protection systems.

In some rural situations it is fair to say that the overhead networks are already heavily overloaded, and the extra potential fault current added to the system by extra generation could cause complete network failure in extreme circumstances.

By far the worst complaint from all network engineers relates to PV systems though - due to the way in which quite large systems can be installed in domestic environments without the level of control that is in place for inputs over 16A/phase means that the system is almost entireley unregulated - this causes all sorts of voltage issues right where the area of most likely complaints will occur!

It is true that the media reporting the end of the world regarding power outages is a little far fetched, but seeing as this paranoia is helping keep me gainfully employed I think a little scaremongering is a good thing....
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Old 29th Nov 2015, 7:12 pm   #128
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Default Re: Pylons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Williams View Post
It is true that the media reporting the end of the world regarding power outages is a little far fetched, but seeing as this paranoia is helping keep me gainfully employed I think a little scaremongering is a good thing....
Aren't the DNOs installing containerised diesel farms at strategic locations to even out the fluctuations? There's one going in at Newton Gate 132kV / 33kV sub at Penrith, Cumbria.
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Old 29th Nov 2015, 7:24 pm   #129
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Default Re: Pylons

With the diesel standby's how long does it take say from cold to contribution?

And what's the procedure eg: notification time, sync etc. ?

Lawrence.
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Old 29th Nov 2015, 8:20 pm   #130
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Default Re: Pylons

There are some being installed, but a drop in the ocean compared to the loss of some of the larger generating plants planned for the future.

As for Lawrence's question....

We have recently completed an install of 10x550kva sets on a site - part of the factory acceptance test was a cold start then a 120% load step - so, given a small "burp" while the speed governers caught up 0-120% in about 5 to 10 seconds......

All of this happens automatically.

Sets used for grid support (STOR) are remotely started in many cases based on the DNO control room, others are just used for "peak lopping" during periods of high demand/

It's amazing to see happen!
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Old 29th Nov 2015, 9:08 pm   #131
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Default Re: Pylons

Thanks Sean.

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Old 29th Nov 2015, 10:35 pm   #132
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Default Re: Pylons

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Originally Posted by pwdrive View Post
With the diesel standby's how long does it take say from cold to contribution?

And what's the procedure eg: notification time, sync etc. ?
Further to Sean's comments, a diesel generator can reasonably be expected to start, stabilise, synchronise and close onto the 'bars within 20 seconds of receiving a start signal, with a further 10 seconds to ramp up to full (export) load.
The start signal is generally issued via a GSM module, by a management company, one such company I have worked with is Kiwi power
One of my colleagues has recently commissioned a 6MW peaking plant in Cumbria.

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Old 29th Nov 2015, 10:59 pm   #133
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Default Re: Pylons

Thanks Rob, further to info provided by Sean regarding over voltage problems I found this:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/defau...08.12.14_0.pdf

It was done down my part of the world and I'm wondering if it ever got to the phase 2 stage and what the conclusions were.

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Old 30th Nov 2015, 9:44 pm   #134
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Smile Re: Pylons

Good evening,
The company I work for do a short term operating reserve service for the National Grid and have 14 individual sites around the country all controlled from a control room in Solihull. I am now involved with improvement projects and overseeing the development of around 19 new sites.

Our sites primarily generate 10MW or 20MW and most are 20 and 16 cylinder gas engines. The largest engines we have generate 3.3MW each

The time it takes from a STOR call start message to full power varies between different engine makes but for the first 30 seconds due to the size of the engines an oil lubrication pump runs to ensure that all of the bearings are lubricated before the engine cranks over. The gas engines usually take 2-3 minutes to ramp up to full power to minimise thermal stresses in the engine. The same time is needed when ramping down at the end of each run. Our biggest engines take approx. 10-12 minutes to ramp up to full power to ensure all exhaust temperatures stay closely matched and the engine control is stable.

We have 3 diesel engined sites but these are not often called to generate by the National grid due to the fuel cost (20 Deutz engines on one site each generating 1MW means a lot of fuel used)

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Last edited by high_vacuum_house; 30th Nov 2015 at 9:51 pm.
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Old 1st Dec 2015, 7:39 am   #135
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Default Re: Pylons

Thanks Christopher for that info, for some reason I have become interested in power distribution etc, no idea why, just have, I'm slowly learning how complex electrical engineering can be.

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Old 1st Dec 2015, 9:45 am   #136
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Default Re: Pylons

Quote:
Originally Posted by high_vacuum_house View Post
(20 Deutz engines on one site each generating 1MW means a lot of fuel used)
As a rough rule of thumb, 1 litre of 35 second diesel fuel oil will deliver 4 kWh of electricity, or put another way kW output divided by 4 is a good approximation of the fuel usage per hour. In Chris's example above this works out around 5,000 L/h, or around 20p a kWh unit.
For every kW of electricity generated, another kW is lost as heat up the exhaust and a further kW out the radiator. CHP systems go a long way towards recovering this waste heat to increase overall efficiency.

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Old 1st Dec 2015, 10:08 am   #137
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Default Re: Pylons

Are these reserve supplies a 'sticking plaster' solution caused by lack of investment in the grid, or are they to even out the intermittencies and imbalances of wind / solar derived energy, the effects of which were not as anticipated? Will they work in 'island mode' or go onto infinite busbars?

And are any other 'strategic sites', other than Newton Gate at Penrith, near, or directly connected to the electric rail network?
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Old 1st Dec 2015, 11:22 am   #138
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Default Re: Pylons

Our company is primarily a reserve service for the national grid. We run when the demand forecast is wrong or an insufficient system margin occurs due to equipment failures.

It can also run if there is a sudden surge in demand as we can generate power much quicker than coal or nuclear can safely respond to a sudden change in demand.

One of the problems with wind is it can drop off very quickly and we have seen a 5GW drop in wind generation over the course of a few hours at least once causing us to run until the coal and nuclear generators have caught up with the change.
Our generators will never generate in Island mode or be used as a back up if there is a local power outage. This is to prevent cables becoming live at both ends should a cable route fail. Another issue is if you are running in Island mode and they reconnect back up to the rest of the national grid there would be a loud bang as they would not be in synchronisation!! We have what are known as G59 relays in each of our control panels which prevent generation should the mains voltage or system frequency fall outside set safety margins. We usually generate at 11KV and export at 33KV.
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Old 1st Dec 2015, 11:30 am   #139
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Default Re: Pylons

G59 protection will prevent against local island operation on safety grounds.
Ultimately yes it is to make up for lack of investment in central generating plant for which there is currently little incentive.
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Old 1st Dec 2015, 1:16 pm   #140
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Default Re: Pylons

Thanks for that, chaps.

I guess 'Island Mode' is not for large-scale load-areas normally grid connected. So will these STOR units remain until the new nuclear plant at Moorside (below Sellafield) is on-stream? Or, indeed, any other 'new-build' power stations?

It's all a far cry from when I was an apprentice electrician in the 1970s and we were told that '...the use of electricity at night is to be encouraged to smooth out demand on the grid...' with bags of street lighting and cheap electricity for the consumer to heat their homes!
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