Is Practical Vintage Radio Too Dangerous For The 21st Century?

[Alan Stepney]

Actually TALK to some youngsters and show them, vintage radio, electronics, and the sort of "gadgets" that we are familiar with, and you may find that some are VERY interested.

At the radio club of which I am a member, one guy (a teacher) arranges demonstrations for teenagers showing them Ham Radio, and various other items.
Most ask sensible questions, are keen to know more and a few actually take it up as a hobby. (Perhaps only temporary, not perhaps not.)

So, given the chance, some teenagers have interests outside of todays ordinary, and that may well be in "vintage technology".

[Boom]

Originally Posted by Herald1360

I doubt any vintage electronics is inherently more dangerous than riding a motor bike

I can still ride my motorbike but only just. I will be stopping soon. I have had to stop doing oil changes to my car as I can no longer lay underneath it

My five year old granddaughter is always asking me to get the gramophones out and is quite confident at changing needles winding the motor and ensuring the pick up is placed correctly on the starting band of the record and also loves watching the bits when I take one apart. Hopefully she will take the lot on when I'm not around any more.

I recently had a problem with an Iphone and didn't have a clue what to do to get it working properly. I went and bought a new one.

Once when I was around 12 I put a screwdriver to the EHT diode anode of a set and was noting the blue glow. I looked down and all around the edges of my shoes was a blue glow which was reaching the floor! Very pretty it was.

[mark pirate]

Originally Posted by Biggles

I used to have an AC/DC set next to my bed with no case on it.

This reminds me of the most severe shock I ever got as a youngster.
I had an ac/dc midget set, I found connecting the aerial lead to the metal window frame in my bedroom drastically improved reception, all was fine until one day I went to shut the window while my other hand was on the radiator.
The shock threw me across the room
I certainly learned a valuable lesson, I now always make a point of checking there is new isolating cap fitted when servicing such sets.

I was also taught a few valuable lessons by a TV engineer, such as keeping one hand in my pocket when working on live equipment.
He used to give me some old TV's to play with, but refused to give me a Pye D16T that I had my eye on, he explained that sets of this age had mains derived EHT, and would not give you a second chance if you touched it.

Apparently he had lost a good friend some years back due to this.


Mark

[greenstar]

I think one appeal of vintage tec must be that components are more discrete and there is more contact and control of basic principles. There is huge interest in crystal sets - and little risk there. A number of people are now making components from scratch, even valves. That's a far cry from the sophistication of 50's tec, but it illustrates the appeal. I think one leads to another.
Danger .. well, we drive, and cross the road. H&S is probably a good thing when not administered by idiots. One problem with it is that it reflects the politics of safety. It's not going to be easy to ban cars, or wars, even though soldiers on the front line are plagued by elfs.
We are not good with the precautionary principle regarding H&S, which seems to be driven by fear of litigation. Anything not yet acknowledged as a risk is vigerously denied, until it is proven, and then there is a watershed, and a flood of claims. Many of us are wary of possible risks in the modern world that didn't exist 100 yrs ago - it will be contentious, but I use a mobile 'phone as little as possible, and try to avoid various contaminants in food. Research into risk doesn't attract many sponsors, and the universities are afraid of upsetting donors, so it is wise to be careful.
Myself, I prefer risks I can avoid by keeping my eyes open to the ones that might give me cancer or destroy the ecology.
Technology, responsibility and risk are intimately connected.

[HamishBoxer]

Let us not forget, it is groups like this one that will keep interest up and bring more folks into the hobby (obsession).

[ColinB]

Hi,

It's an interesting point re vintage technology and participating in what society might view as other 'high risk' sports and activities. Could someone start a poll to see how many here are active in these fields?

As some may guess from my avatar, I'm a whitewater kayaker, and many people are horrified that we will keenly go and play in weirs, rapids, drops, waves etc. Some question if this is 'allowed' or not, but I think the main point has to be that in any field it is down to the participant to;

1. Research and understand the risk - might happen to me if I do X?
2. Evaluate the risk - how likely is it that this will go wrong?
3. Evaluate the consequences - if it goes wrong, what can I do about it? How can I set up a second (and ideally a third) line of defence to protect me, without putting others at unacceptable risk?
4. If it does all go as wrong as it possibly can, am I prepared to accept the chance of that, in return for the benefit I will get if it all goes to plan?

Knowing all this, one can take a decision on the level of risk and the reward, and then decide to proceed or not on that basis.

It seems too many today are unwilling or unable to evaluate risk, and just perceive any risk of anything happening as being negative and something to avoid at all costs.

Cheers,
Colin

Originally Posted by greenstar

There is huge interest in crystal sets - and little risk there

Lightning strike near the aerail?

Originally Posted by ColinB

I'm a whitewater kayaker

And I am more than happy to pay a weeny bit more tax if you ever need rescuing, makes for a more interesting world with interesting people in it. Thinking about it, you (the kayaker) being risk aware probably saves me money in the end.

[threeseven]

I'll happily fiddle about with equipment whilst live with HT floating about, ride motorcycles with, ahem, purpose, mess about in the rough on mountain bikes, etc, etc. However, two things I would never do, under any circumstances whatsoever, are, whitewater anything and pot holing, no way no how!

[Peter.N.]

In the days when we had valve TVs you had to work on them live, there was no other practical way of fault finding.

I think using a chainsaw is probably more of a risk, although I have been doing that for many years without incident - so far.

Peter

[QQVO6/40]

Hello all.
Colin. Have you noticed that your well tuned skills of being able to assess any given situation within your chosen sport have benefited your life outside of your sport.
What I am getting at is that you have become more aware of your surroundings during your everyday life. For example, you take more care in crossing a road.
Until my recent retirement I had been a workplace trainer in the coal industry for 28 years. A lot of that involved health and safety stuff.
I had found that people who regularly enjoyed active sports or other pursuits of a "higher risk" level than other members of the community have a higher awareness of their surroundings.
I used to teach people how to operate some of the largest open cut mining equipment in the world and I found these people were some of the best to teach. They tended to make measured decisions and did not rush in to situations blindly. A much safer operator.
One mine I did some training for had taken on quite a few out of work high voltage electricians that had been laided off from another organisation. It was my job to train these people to operate mine machinery. Again, because of their experience of working in a high risk environment, they did not jump into risky situations.
I have a lot of friends who are radio amateurs and some others who are familiar with high voltage gear and they are all very careful people. Do not take risks, sit back, assess the situation do not act hastily.
I feel that enjoying our Vintage pursuit as we do has generally made us more aware of our surroundings and in the long run, more safe than the average Joe blow off the street.
Just my 2d worth of opinion.

Cheers all, Robert.

[threeseven]

Very valid point. Certainly by riding motorcycles I have, or appear to have, considerably more awareness of road conditions and find myself trying to predict what other road users may do to my detriment. It has saved my skin and the cars or bikes metal on many occasions!

[unitaudio]

I've been playing with audio equipment since 1979 when I was 10. In the intervening years I've suffered one electric shock. Before it happened I thought I was aware of the risk. After it happened I made sure it never happened again (yet).

I work mostly on transistorised equipment which is less risky but the shock came from a transistorised record player so it pays not to become complacent.

No lasting harm was done and it changed the way I went about these things. Health and Safety is indeed a good thing when not practiced by idiots but it's impossible to implement effectively without a bit of common sense. School playground games that survived for generations have now been banned under the sacred catch-all of Health and Safety.

A look at some of the stupid things people do online in the hope of going viral and becoming a brief, meaningless celebrity shows that all the legislation in the world is no proof against idiocy.

The nature of our hobby dictates a certain minimum amount of knowledge, most of which will be acquired by means similar to those that taught me the risk (a good "belt" or two, just to focus the mind). No lasting damage, a healthy respect for mains electricity and first hand knowledge of the consequences of ignoring said risk are the usual result of such a hands-on education.

As a rule I don't usually work on anything made after about 1985. It isn't a safety issue, just that it becomes trickier to repair more recent gear. Also, non-availability of parts is a much bigger problem with newer equipment than with the older stuff (here I'm talking about electronic parts rather than trim, knobs etc.) and thus the future of our hobby is looking shaky indeed. On top of that is the general disinterest other posters have mentioned, the love affair with digital technology and the widespread modern attitude of anything old being worthless. These things alone are more than enough to kill this hobby over time before we even get as far as Health and Safety.

Is it too dangerous? Not if done by someone with a genuine interest. It's easy to learn about almost any subject if interested but almost impossible if not. Obviously you can't legislate for accidents (a friend of mine died several years ago in an abseiling accident. He'd been doing it for 9 years and he knew what he was doing but things can go wrong) but great damage is done in many fields by people who believe Health and Safety procedures remove all risk and should be adhered to without discrimination or sensible risk assessment.

Regards,
Paul

[Radio Wrangler]

Repairing period TVs and radios hasn't become any more dangerous, but the number of people who can do it safely has reduced due to familiarisation with the larger amount of low voltage stuff nowadays.

The perception of danger and the expectation of safety have also increased.

But probably the increase in litigiousness is the chief culprit.

The tale of the woman drying her poodle in a microwave oven might or might not be believed, but the follow-up of her sueing the cooker manufacturer is certainly believable Did anyone ever find the truth of this?

David

[Tubeglow]

I have one thing to say, fit a discharge resistor.
It costs pennies and could save a life. It has no effect on the operation of the equipment.

The number of times I have seen equipment B+ hang after power off because of heater fail. Even in guitar amps! They haven't had one for 30 years well its about time they did then isn't it. Even 470K is better than nothing.
It removes the need to manually discharge which is just another chance for something to go wrong. Although it should be checked every time before you touch.

Tubeglow.

[unitaudio]

Further to what I said in my previous post, any amount of assumed knowledge can be extremely dangerous. Since joining this forum I've learned that a lot of what I thought I knew was wrong. That's not a huge problem when it comes to transistorised equipment (keep away from the primary side of the mains transformer while powered up and you'll be alright) but with valve equipment it's quite a different matter.

Valves are not for the habitual tinkerer, specialist knowledge is required. An attitude of "oh, I'm quite handy at fixing things" isn't enough. The uninformed could think the highest voltage they'll ever encounter is 240 volts. That's bad enough as it is but most will be unaware of the HT flying around in there.

Far fewer people these days know the dangers. Most of the time it's not an issue, most people have no interest in such things but when they think they know more than they actually do, that's the point where it becomes dangerous.

As some people have already pointed out, valve equipment is no more dangerous than it ever was but the shift in knowledge towards more modern techniques can, in the wrong hands, make these things lethal.

If you know what you're doing regarding valves, no problem. If you don't, some reading up on the subject is mandatory. Otherwise, find someone who is familiar with the technology and get your hand in your pocket!

Regards,
Paul

[Tubeglow]

One thing to remember.

B+ is bad enough.
However, HV (B+) with high values of capacitance (smoothing in the PSU is much worse!)
Capacitors have the ability to release energy very quickly and high values of capacitance means HV with current. The higher the capacitance the more power is available under shock conditions.
The other side effect is the discharge times of the PSU are longer so the risk of contact is higher. (After power off)

Tubeglow.

[unitaudio]

Tubeglow, you're quite right of course and this is a danger common to valve or transistor equipment. Once I decided in my infinite wisdom to discharge a large smoothing can by shorting it with a screwdriver. The end of the blade vanished in a very noisy shower of sparks! Very scary when you're not ready for it. How many non-techie types would know that?

Regards,
Paul

[G6Tanuki]

Originally Posted by Tubeglow

I have one thing to say, fit a discharge resistor.
It costs pennies and could save a life. It has no effect on the operation of the equipment.

Agreed entirely! And be aware that a lot of the current-generation 1-watt 'carbon film' type resistors are only rated for 250V so for reliability you need to wire a couple in series if they're going to be bleeders for middle/high-power amps, linears, transmitters etc.

Must admit, I've always liked the idea of combining the bleeder-resistor with the series-feed resistor for the "Power On" neon - this gives dual function "wait until the neon goes out before handling the equipment" indication and also highlighting an open-circuit bleeder resistor because the neon doesn't come on at all.

[G6Tanuki]

Originally Posted by Peter.N.

I think using a chainsaw is probably more of a risk, although I have been doing that for many years without incident - so far.

The moderators would no doubt stamp on a "Vintage Chainsaw" thread [you don't get a centrifugal clutch or a stop-switch on a chainsaw powered by a 125cc Villiers engine...]

[Variometer]

Some time ago, I started wiring a small neon and ballast resistor under the chassis of main sets. Continuous indication of dangerous voltages. Can't imagine why no-one else ever thought of this. I know it is not foolproof, but it is almost so!
Of late, I have been completely put off about writing anything further on vintage radio because I am continually being told how dangerous it is - hence the reason I started this discussion. I am amazed at the response, and generally agree with all that has been said!
Bob