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Old 16th Dec 2009, 10:42 pm   #1
Ian B
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Default Pre-war TV sets

Apologies if this has been dealt with before.

Wireless World estimated in June 1939 that approximately 20,000 sets were in use by then. The TV service from Alexandra Palace was well established and transmitters at Birmingham and Manchester were being mooted (linked to AP via cable). A new licence for TV reception was suggested, a fee of 20 shillings estimated as being able to raise £100,000 per annum if the service were thus extended. Presumably the BBC would then have had a bit more cash to extend the hours of transmission. All these plans were, as we all know, thwarted by Herr Hitler. But how did WW arrive at their estimated 20,000 sets sold. Was it from the manufacturers' own sales figures - and how reliable would these have been?

Ian Blackbourn
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Old 16th Dec 2009, 10:48 pm   #2
chipp1968
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

20,000 sounds a surprising amount pre war .
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Old 16th Dec 2009, 11:18 pm   #3
Michael Maurice
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

London or should I say Greater London still had a population of about 4 to 5 million before the war so it represents 0.05 percent of the population of London
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Old 16th Dec 2009, 11:38 pm   #4
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

I've heard from other sources that 23,000 TV sets were in use just before the war. Also was the EMI made Birmingham TV aerial and transmitter equipment ready for delivery sometime in 1940?

DFWB.
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Old 16th Dec 2009, 11:53 pm   #5
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

Hi.
Indeed I have seen that between 20 & 23,000 sets were in use. considering the amount sold its really surprising that so many actually survive. We were at war remember so many houses were bombed and many people would have been moved away from their homes, the television in those hard times would certainly not have been paramount in their thoughts.
Postwar how many would have worked and no doubt the well heeled would have replaced a set that was unused for some time.
Come to think of it, it's surprizing any have survived!
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 12:44 am   #6
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by FERNSEH View Post
...was the EMI made Birmingham TV aerial and transmitter equipment ready for delivery sometime in 1940?...
A little OT, but this story keeps popping up - I wonder where it originated...

For the record, the 'Birmingham' (ie., Sutton Coldfield) transmitter was still under design in Summer 1949. Largely built by Metropolitan Vickers, only the modulator stages were built by EMI. The CAT21 valves used in the TX output stage did not become available until after the War. The aerial was very much a postwar design too.

Pre-war thinking was that a 'Birmingham' station would be able to re-use the same Band I channel as AP, but using horizontal rather than vertical polarisation to provide protection: fortunately, the advances in knowledge of VHF propagation characteristics, brought upon us by World War II , enabled us to avoid making that particular mistake...
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 8:19 am   #7
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

I may be in error but I believe the figures were extrapolated from license fees, retail sales and manufacturers sales. I think I saw the explanation in "Television the formative years"
There are certainly lists available that were provided by the Board of trade or whatever it was then called for the years 1936/37/38/39 and all seem to agree with the figures mentioned in earlier posts.
The figures quoted do NOT INCLUDE UNSOLD SETS.
Victor.
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 9:26 am   #8
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by FERNSEH
Also was the EMI made Birmingham TV aerial and transmitter equipment ready for delivery sometime in 1940?
According to the RMA report circa August 1939, no final decision had been made regarding extending to the provinces, so I doubt any equipment for the job was made before the war and they'd surely have been too busy on other things during the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by English Victor
I may be in error but I believe the figures were extrapolated from license fees ...
There was no special tv licence before the war.

TTFN,
Jon
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 11:40 am   #9
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

I would certainly back the higher number in use in 1939. I lived in Merton Park [near Wimbledon] as a young lad and amazing numbers of pre war television receivers used to turn up at jumble sales. The scout ones were the best due to having access to vans etc for collection. The 904's were common but I remember a large number of mirror lid receivers. They were too heavy for transportation and alas usually ended up on a bonfire round the back of the hut. As I have posted before, my first job as a school lad in 1960 was breaking up pre war sets in the basement of a television shop. There would be at least three per week to deal with. My services were also called for at another shop situated in a wealthy part of Wimbledon and they had a massive shed full of pre war and early post war part exchanges. Add to this the well heeled areas around Sussex, North London and the provinces and I would estimate as high as 30.000 sets.
I believe many were home constructed and this no doubt added to the figures. Think of the huge quantity of dual standard colour sets that were produced and the tiny amount that have survived. Regards, John.
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 12:02 pm   #10
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatercathodeshort View Post
I believe many were home constructed and this no doubt added to the figures. Regards, John.
Was there really much activity in home constructed "Hi Def" sets before the war, John? I haven't read too much about it in the magazines of the time - plenty about 30 line receivers but hardly anything for 240 or 405 line stuff. I would have thought that CRTs would have been very expensive - if available - and the technology used quite advanced. Post war, there was definitely a boom in home construction, mainly due to ex-government radar kit being extremely cheap and plentyful (those were the days). All the relevant publications serialised their designs, both freelance & ex-government.
Cheers
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 1:18 pm   #11
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

Brian, Wireless World published in June 1939 a series of constructional articles for a 405 line receiver with 9" Baird tube & scan coils. If anyone is interested I could scan the circuit and put it on. Unfortunately I don't have all the articles...... Probably not many could have been completed before the outbreak of hostilities, however.

Ian blackbourn
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 1:49 pm   #12
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

I think I should have the complete set of articles entitled "The Wireless World Television Receiver" that was published July 2nd, 9th, 16th, 23rd and 30th 1937. Written by W. T. Cocking.

I don't have much from 1939 so I'm not sure if this is the same design that you are refering to Ian.

The 1937 one uses 4 valves + 1 rect. in the sound receiver, 5 valves + 1 rect in the vision, 2 in synch sep, 6 in the timebase and 2 further rectifiers for HV.
It has a direct viewing CRT.

Peter
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 2:33 pm   #13
chipp1968
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

It does seam then that most sets were destroyed ,and it also shows how many radios survive by comparesen even rare types ,that have been put away somwhere perhaps . I do think though that peoples feeling about tvs were generally less nostalgic than the radio sets .
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 2:44 pm   #14
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by chipp1968 View Post
It does seam then that most sets were destroyed ,and it also shows how many radios survive by comparesen......
There were a LOT more radios than TVs. Also think about the position of a pre-war TV in the 1950s. It may have cost a lot of money but it's now an unreliable, poorly performing and huge piece of junk. Put yourself in the position of a TV owner back then. A nice new 17" set with a bright picture and ITV or an old hulk with dim 12" picture. Small pre-war sets like the 904/706 are more likely to survive simply because of their size and the fact they were also good quality radios. A number of these were sold as radios after the outbreak of war.

Speak to any (London area) TV dealer active in the 1950s and they will tell you about how they massacred plenty of pre-war sets.
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 2:55 pm   #15
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

Here are some do it yourself prewar set articles, including the 1937 Wireless World set:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/build_your_own_tv.html

Here are the RMA figures on British prewar TV sets made:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/briti...war_count.html

and estimates of the number of American sets made:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/us_sets_made.html

Last edited by Steve_McVoy; 17th Dec 2009 at 3:00 pm.
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Old 17th Dec 2009, 5:47 pm   #16
brianc
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

Thanks Steve and Peter. That article from WW has set me thinking! I might have a go at one of those some time - when my bench is clear.
As to the number of sets made, did the request from the BBC say numbers made or numbers supplied to their dealers?
Cheers
Brian
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Old 20th Dec 2009, 6:48 am   #17
ENGLISH VICTOR
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

Jon, how right you are, of course there were no T.V. licences. I think the other sources I mentioned are quite near the mark.
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Old 20th Dec 2009, 10:32 am   #18
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

There were many designs for pre war receivers published in various technical books of the time. Wireless World has been mentioned and somewhere I have some details of their
'Magnetic Television Receiver' but that might have been mentioned in an earlier post. Television and Short Wave World published their 'Guaranteed Cathode-Ray receiver' in November 1936 and there must have been a good few more before 1939. A number of companies produced equipment for the home constructor but would have gone to the wall on the 1st September 1939. Attached advert for December 1936 from TaSWW.
Regards, John.
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Old 20th Dec 2009, 6:15 pm   #19
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Default Re: Pre-war TV sets

Here are the RMA figures on British prewar TV sets made:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/briti...war_count.html


Well, that seems fairly definitive, I guess when you add on the home-built ones then 20,000 must be about right.
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