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Old 20th Sep 2020, 1:31 pm   #21
Michael.N.
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Default Re: PX4 valves?

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It's always been there but it seemed to kick on in the 90's, a true valve revival for the Hi-Fi lot. It was the early 90's when I started building the odd valve amplifier, although none stretched to anything more than ECL86, El84,6V6. I was poor, couldn't afford things like KT's or 300B's. I remember saving long and hard for a pricey Goldring cartridge. It was lovely. Problem was just two weeks after buying it I was hankering after a cartridge that was twice the price. I kind of gave up after that and escaped from the psychological damage of always being thirsty.
Having said that it's the same with many other interests - cameras, musical instruments, sports equipment. There always seems to be someone making 'the ultimate' and if that doesn't satisfy, well we can find you another, different ultimate.
Then there was that Japanese valve amp with the silver output transformers, whatever that was called. Was that the Audionote?

The audio obsession game is an awful addiction - into which the perfectionists fall very hard. Generally, it's chasing rainbows as it never truly satisfies.
There's always that 'it could be a bit better' hankering that's hard to dismiss.
You might get an improvement or a 'difference' from one bit of kit to another, but most of it is related to what you paid - of course, very much on a 'law of diminishing returns' basis.
I have been there, done it and found it to be a costly waste of precious time, with the latter being the more regretted loss.
I have ended up more or less back where I started, with decent, but not overly expensive gear, and have decided to be content with that.
You can get 90% of the sound for 20% of the cost, I think...
One thing I did learn... buy equipment that is easily maintainable.. and for which parts are reasonably available/widely used.
So you have obviously been down the route of listening to the euipment rather than the message! That's the other thing I found myself doing a lot. The music became very much subservient to the sound of the equipment.
I have next to nothing now, just computer speakers and a little sub. Maybe one day I'll buy one of those old German radios with the multiple speakers, hook it up to a source. Mono, stereo I'm not bothered. Kind of like a modern day radiogram. That will do me!

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Old 20th Sep 2020, 2:24 pm   #22
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Default Re: PX4 valves?

Surely someone has done a blind test at some point to prove if there is any detectable difference between say an PX4 valve amp and a decent Transistor one?
I would be interested to see if anyone could hear the difference !
I remember going to a hi fi shop in town when I was about 18. I was into Pink Floyd and had bought myself some Hi Fi separates they would probably be considered junk to an expert but they sounded good to me! Garrard Deck, Philips Tuner amp, (a good solid one before they went all plastic) Sharp cassette deck and Celestion speakers . The problem was my parents... They objected to hours of "Depressing noise" !
Hence my visit to the Hi Fi shop I wanted a pair of Sennheiser headphones. The rather sniffy suited assistant put on a demo record and handed me the headphones, I liked the sound and adjusted the treble on the amp to see what they were like on the high end. The assistant's reaction was one of absolute horror! He reset the treble control and explained that I needed to listen to them "flat" I did buy the headphones and left wondering why amplifiers had Bass and Treble controls if you weren't allowed to touch them!
I had not dared to ask!
So audio snobbery was definitely alive in 1977/8...
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 2:26 pm   #23
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Default Re: PX4 valves?

Might be wrong but i think there was a period in the seventies where the Japanese were selling us high powered blunderbuss transistor amplifiers but eschewing them themselves in favour of low powered class a jobs utilising British px4/25 triodes, i think that's where the craze started.
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 2:49 pm   #24
GrimJosef
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Default Re: PX4 valves?

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Surely someone has done a blind test at some point to prove if there is any detectable difference between say an PX4 valve amp and a decent Transistor one? ...
The 'blind testing' subject has been aired many times. In a nutshell, it's a real pain to do properly, and I do mean properly. So this means genuinely double-blind and also with independent scrutiny (i.e. not with, say, the magazine team marking their own homework). When it has been done that way people can't, at any reasonably statistically significant level, tell between any two 'hi-fi quality' amps which are working within their design specifications.

The best 'explanation' for this, from an audiophile point of view, that I have come across was by Paul Messenger, audio journalist of very long standing and, until recently, editor of the no-adverts (so no direct commercial pressures) magazine Hi-Fi Critic.

Messenger explains that genuinely rigorous tests inevitably have to be carried out under conditions very different from those in which hi-fi is normally used. There is time pressure. The choice of associated equipment (particularly speakers) may not be optimal, and there isn't time to optimise the layout of that equipment in the listening room. The music used may not be optimal either (tests have to be repeated for statistical significance to be reached, which limits the number of different musical pieces). The person being subjected to the test is unlikely to be relaxed. All these things make it hard to reach a conclusion. The actual use of hi-fi and even the reviewing of it, on the other hand, allows at least a few weeks for the owner/journalist to get to know the sound. They can tweak the very best out of it in comfort and without stress. Under those conditions they claim they can hear differences. In a test lab they struggle to.

It's quite a hard argument to disprove.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 3:30 pm   #25
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Default Re: PX4 valves?

The only problem with a superstition is that it is a superstition.
Same applies to conspiracy theories, both are utterly impervious to reason.

On much the same lines, "could improve" makes can, can't, will, won't irrelevant to the true believer.
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 3:38 pm   #26
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Default Re: PX4 valves?

I'm surprised audiophiles don't get registered as a religion. The definition of belief without objective proof is easy to satisfy, and there are various tax-breaks and other advantages of protected status available to religions. At the prices they pay fot their things, tax breaks ought to be very attractive also churches aren't subject to normal planning limitations, so a listening room ought to qualify. Just do what the pastafarians did!

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Old 20th Sep 2020, 3:52 pm   #27
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Default Re: PX4 valves?

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So audio snobbery was definitely alive in 1977/8...
You're not wrong there!
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 6:30 pm   #28
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Default Re: PX4 valves?

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Originally Posted by GrimJosef View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidertogrid View Post
Surely someone has done a blind test at some point to prove if there is any detectable difference between say an PX4 valve amp and a decent Transistor one? ...
The 'blind testing' subject has been aired many times. In a nutshell, it's a real pain to do properly, and I do mean properly. So this means genuinely double-blind and also with independent scrutiny (i.e. not with, say, the magazine team marking their own homework). When it has been done that way people can't, at any reasonably statistically significant level, tell between any two 'hi-fi quality' amps which are working within their design specifications.

The best 'explanation' for this, from an audiophile point of view, that I have come across was by Paul Messenger, audio journalist of very long standing and, until recently, editor of the no-adverts (so no direct commercial pressures) magazine Hi-Fi Critic.

Messenger explains that genuinely rigorous tests inevitably have to be carried out under conditions very different from those in which hi-fi is normally used. There is time pressure. The choice of associated equipment (particularly speakers) may not be optimal, and there isn't time to optimise the layout of that equipment in the listening room. The music used may not be optimal either (tests have to be repeated for statistical significance to be reached, which limits the number of different musical pieces). The person being subjected to the test is unlikely to be relaxed. All these things make it hard to reach a conclusion. The actual use of hi-fi and even the reviewing of it, on the other hand, allows at least a few weeks for the owner/journalist to get to know the sound. They can tweak the very best out of it in comfort and without stress. Under those conditions they claim they can hear differences. In a test lab they struggle to.

It's quite a hard argument to disprove.

Cheers,

GJ
I don't buy that at all, it's just journalists trying to justify that amps do sound different and there's a thousand and one reasons why blind testing doesn't work - just like audiophools. I'm not saying that amps don't sound different, but can the average person discriminate? Well that's where blind, ABX testing comes in, and it's well documented that even the biggest names in the world of hifi are caught out. And of course, don't forget, journalists have a vested interest in saying that amps do sound different, even though most people cannot identify the fact, writing flowery reviews and comparisons is their living.
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Old 20th Sep 2020, 7:05 pm   #29
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Default Re: PX4 valves?

Oh, I'm sure you don't buy it Steve . All I'm saying is we can't prove it's wrong. There are people in other fields who clearly don't perform well under pressure, or when they're fatigued, or when they're out of their normal environment.

Cheers,

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