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Old 7th Nov 2019, 8:54 pm   #21
staticmind
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

I have attached a better picture of the AT4008.

Seeing as the PL36 doesn't work - is there any harm in removing that before bringing the set up on a variac? I assume I could remove as many of the tubes as I want, as none of the heaters are on either way when PY88, DY87 are removed and CRT disconnected.

Sorry for the novice questions. This is my first set, and am currently trying to learn how everything is connected in the LOPTx section - but I'm looking at schematics for Capri 610 and Grand Prix 513 TVs as well as I find the 606 schematics I attached a bit confusing. Even on the originals it is hard to grasp which lines connect in the LOPTx schematic section and which do not.
I had the same problem with the schematics when restoring my B&O Mini Moderne 514K radio.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 7:27 pm   #22
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Ok, I have a more serious problem. The reason why the LOPTx looks so clean is because it is not the original one. In fact, it is completely the wrong part! It should have been an AT2016, but I have an AT2021, which is meant for 23" CRTs with 20kV anode voltage, not 16 kV. Sigh.

The circuitry around it has been modified somewhat.

I'm wondering how this configuration has ever worked. Anyways - the AT's seems to be Philips parts, as someone suggested. Is an AT2016 impossible to find, and does one know in what other models this LOPTx was used?
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 10:26 am   #23
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Maybe someone fitted the alternative LOPT due to the original being hard to find and modified the circuit to suit and possibly reduce the EHT to the correct level?
Would it be worth getting the set working and see what the picture size and EHT are like?
Rich.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 12:18 pm   #24
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Sometimes I think leaving modifications in a product if is working well keeps it authentic to it's history.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 1:19 pm   #25
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

I think the coil in the metal tube with the plastic "hex" nut at one end and the wire poking out is the width control?

I would check everything over and get some power into it to see where you stand so far before piling lots of capacitors etc. into a set that may not perform correctly because it has the wrong LOPT fitted.

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Old 4th Dec 2019, 3:29 pm   #26
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunts smoothing bomb View Post
I think the coil in the metal tube with the plastic "hex" nut at one end and the wire poking out is the width control.
It could be, but in UK designed and made Philips monochrome TV sets from late 50s to mid 60s, something looking identical to it was always the horizontal linearity control.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 4:50 pm   #27
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

I remember servicing a B&O 15" or 17" colour transportable that had the Philips CP90 chassis fitted. J.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 6:32 pm   #28
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Best chance to find an AT2016 is in non-Philips sets. Philips sets used transformers from the same families but mostly customised whereas the ATxxxx types were standardised types from the parts catalogue. Of course there could be a Philips chassis using almost the same transformer, but it would never have the AT2016 designation so still some work needed to find the correct (near) equivalent.

On the other hand, if the chassis was modified correctly, the AT2021 might not be a problem. I haven't compared the data sheets, though.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 8:15 pm   #29
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Thanks for all the inputs on this.

Rich (slidertogrid). How would one go about modifying/decreasing the EHT? Reduce the anode voltage of PL36 by modifying the 1M and 1k resistors going to grid to something else (higher) ?
As the set is pretty rare, I'd like to get it working again at nearly any cost and time.

Wave solder. I definitely agree, but would like to understand the modifications first before going any further.

Lee (Hunts smoothing bomb) & dazzlevision: Got it confirmed a few days earlier also by a local radio guy - it is indeed the horizontal linearity - thanks!. Also - I already spent the money on the caps, and replaced what was needed, expect for in the LOPTx section.

Maarten,
Thanks for the tip. I actually looked at Philips TVs from the Netherlands and found that 17TX291A is not that rare of a sight. It seems to use the same parts in the LOPTx section - but again the mounting of the LOPTx is not the same as mine is mounted on PCB material using two screws, and the winding/taps are connected to solder lugs, while the one in the Philips TV connects to elsewhere using a socket. Might be the same mounting method, but who knows if the windings and wire colors are identical.

You mention data sheets for the AT LOPTx - do you know if these are available anywhere?
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Old 17th Dec 2019, 7:37 pm   #30
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Hi Staticmind!
I am from Germany and have a huge collection of TV sets from Denmark!
They had awful lot of small companies producing radios and TVs.
That`s something what makes TVs from little Denmark very collectable.

But back to the line output transformer.
I am sure that the TV has worked with the new LOPT!
The 17", 21" and the 23" CRT have in your case the same angle!
That is importent! Don`t worry!
Sometimes you have to deal with production changes, so please
stay at first with that what you find, before you start to convert
the TV to the schematic version!
It is more importent to use high-quality caps, when valves are
tested, elytics are tested, you can try to fire it up with an variac.
Good luck!

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Old 18th Dec 2019, 3:53 pm   #31
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Hi German Dalek,

Very interesting to hear that you collect old Danish TVs - I would never have thought someone outside Denmark would be interested in that.

An EHT is on my wish list for christmas. Before I get one (or buy one), I'm not going any further.

Why is it important that the LOPTx should be designed for 110 deg versus using one for 90 deg? Wouldn't the differences fully be taken care of by the yoke?

The AT2023 isn't a production change. I talked to Ringsted Radiomuseum who has a Capri 607 17" in their collection. That would be a year younger than my 606. The 607 also has an AT2016/01.
Another reason why I can see it isn't original, is that a Jensen capacitor (1 uF) has been installed in the circuit. All other caps are otherise from Wicon.

In the coming week, I'll try to draw down a schematic of the modications that were made. Perhaps someone can help me figure out, if the modification is sane (or insane).
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 12:38 pm   #32
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

You are in good hands if you contact the Ringstedt radio museum!
I know them very well from visiting them several times by the old mill.
They have more beautiful stuff in the cellar of the school.

But as I said before, count on that these modofications were a solution
to bring back life into the TV set!
I like to say it with easy words, a higher deflection angle (rising from
70° > 90° > 110°) askes more power in the deflection stages.
That means stronger valves, too.
It doesn`t make big sense if you drive a TV receiver with a 17" or 21" CRT.
There are mostly no changes in the schematics, but if you change the angle
you have some changes.
The modern line transformer could be an official interchange part!
This happens offen, when the old stuff was not more available!
Sometimes the interchange part has to be mounted with some changes
in the schematic, who knows if that is the case with your set!

Regards,
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Old 19th Dec 2019, 8:26 pm   #33
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Thanks a lot - the explanation makes sense. It makes sense when thinking about the horizontal blanking time must remain the same regarding of deflection angle, but the beam has to be moved faster than before, if I understand this right. Kind of amazing how they figured this out or designed stuff back then.

What will be the result if the anode voltage exceeds 16 kV? Internal arching in the CRT? The AW43-88 data sheet staes 16 kV as a max, but not what will happen if that isn't met.
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Old 25th Dec 2019, 11:50 pm   #34
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

like it was said before the size of the tube makes almost no difference...i have a nordmende tv with a 21 tube now running a 17 tube both 90º...the important thing is the deflection angle being the same so dont worry. i also have a philips set with a rounded 21 tube that was weak and i squeezed in a rectangular 23 tube both 110º...makes no difference in focus or brightness, lopt runs cool etc, i have youtube videos on that...
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 9:12 pm   #35
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Thanks! Just viewed your two-part video on youtube on the swap from 21 to 23. Very nice.
The 21" to 17" seems to always be possible, as they're both 16 kV. My concern is always the 18/20 kV vs. 16 kV limit.

But I ordered a B&K PR-28A high voltage probe yesterday to assist in determining if this mod is sane. Should arrive sometime next week, so we'll see
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Old 9th Apr 2020, 9:07 pm   #36
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Just thought I'd slightly update on the progress. It's been a while, where I sismply didn't have time to look further into it. I powered on the set using a Variac.

I can hear the high pitch horizontal running, along with the vertical (although it is rather loud).
All tube filaments are glowing, but there is no picture/brightness at all on the screen.
When turning off the set again, I do get a "raster", e.g. the image collapses, as the image normally does when powering off a TV.

I will try to measure the EHT using my PR-28A probe (work environment is too dark by now).
Anyone has a guess on what causes no picture/raster and only something visible when switching the set of again? Can this only be lack of EHT?
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 7:45 am   #37
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
I take it Arena collaborated with Rank in the Seventies to produce hi-fi systems? They looked nice, but weren't particularly reliable and certainly weren't like B&O!
Rank went into acquisition mode at around that time. They certainly bought Wharfedale and Leak at around that time.

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Old 10th Apr 2020, 11:53 am   #38
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

Arena was the brand of a Danish HiFi manufacturer: Hede Nielsen Fabriker A/S, of Horsens.
It was bought by the Rank Organisation in 1970, following a serious fire.
Thereafter, in the UK, Arena products were often branded as Rank Arena or Bush Arena.
The recently rebuilt Horsens factory was closed in 1973, following heavy losses.
Rank Radio International (RRI) continued to use the Arena brand, but usually as Rank Arena or Bush Arena. The heavily loss making RRI was closed down in 1982.

H J Leak & Company was taken over by Rank Organisation in January 1969. Production soon relocated from their west London site to the Wharfedale factory in Idle, Yorkhire.

Wharfedale Wireless Work became a part of the Rank Organisation in 1959 and in 1966, it was renamed Rank Wharfedale Ltd. Wharfedale was sold by Rank in the early 1980’s.
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Old 10th Apr 2020, 7:47 pm   #39
staticmind
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

We're getting somewhere now. The brightness needs to be adjusted upwards a bit (or the pot may be flaky) and presto I have a bright raster. Linearity is pretty bad, big spacing at the top, and the picture ends about midways where the lines are just on top of each other. I didn't replace any of the the Wicon film capacitors yet. I haven't touched the vertical linearity pot at all - this would correct spacing, but not move the image downwards as I understand.

The EHT is 13.5-14 kV.

About Rank-Arena: After they shut down, employees from the factory continued production in a new company at the same premises. The company name was 3F, "Folke Fjernsyns Fabrikken" (roughly: People's Television Factory), but it closed down a few years later. Here's a photo of their only TV I could find. Of course, it is not their own design, but derived from Tungsram.

http://www.radiodata.dk/foto800/665.jpg
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Old 11th Apr 2020, 9:22 pm   #40
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Default Re: B&O Capri 606 TV (17") restoration

It turns out all the white Wicon film caps, while looking decent and unharmed are no good at all. They all measure about 10 times their value at DC (using Fluke 175) and slowly decreases by some nF until they settle. I had a feeling this might happen, so I ordered a whole bunch of replacement film caps, and decided just to replace all the Wicons.

Next thing will be hooking up my pattern generator. Maybe sometime next week.
This AW43-88 is surprisingly bright.

Is there anything I would need to worry about regarding the LOPTx now that I know it is working? I did not heat up the overwind prior to this, but the TV has sat in a very dry environment for the past 6 months, and I did heat it up with a hair dryer. Maybe I should monitor the temperatures using an infrared thermometer...
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