UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Computers

Notices

Vintage Computers Any vintage computer systems, calculators, video games etc., but with an emphasis on 1980s and earlier equipment.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 8th May 2021, 3:52 pm   #61
onewatt
Hexode
 
onewatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Buntingford, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 362
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Ok,

I'm visiting site on Monday to collect books and paperwork from a lifetimes interest in electronics. I'll probably have to filter afterwards and it may take me until next weekend, but I'll see what I can find on softy2.

Some more pics which hopefully work for all.
Attached Files
File Type: zip IMG_5856.zip (3.54 MB, 84 views)
File Type: zip IMG_5862.zip (2.82 MB, 70 views)
File Type: zip IMG_5865.zip (2.24 MB, 89 views)
__________________
BVWS, VMARS, RSGB, DEHS, RAOTA

Nothings too big or too heavy, otherwise it wouldn't be where it is!
onewatt is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 4:36 pm   #62
Buzby123
Heptode
 
Buzby123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Culcheth, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 637
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

The screened printing says S4.1, but the copper says S4.2.
Buzby123 is offline  
Old 8th May 2021, 4:50 pm   #63
wave solder
Hexode
 
wave solder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK.
Posts: 481
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

I have quite a few PROM programmers in my collection but the only bi-polar programmer is this one which belongs to my Motorola development system.


http://www.garronn-electronics.co.uk/4616.html
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	smaller.jpg
Views:	86
Size:	127.9 KB
ID:	233564  
wave solder is offline  
Old 9th May 2021, 6:03 am   #64
ortek_service
Octode
 
ortek_service's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK.
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzby123 View Post
The screened printing says S4.1, but the copper says S4.2.
S4.2 is on the underside (Layer 2?) of the PCB. And S4.1 is only on the top (Usually called Layer 1).
So I would presume they used the number after the point to mark the PCB's phototools artwork, so they knew which phototool sheets needed to go where when the PCB was being made.

And maybe the '4' signifies the version of PCB for that product - Issue 4
- It's a bit confusing, being as they mostly dropped the Softy name after the Softy-2, replacing it with hand-held 'S3', and then an 'S4' (before the current S6, which isn't standalone anymore!)

Last edited by ortek_service; 9th May 2021 at 6:08 am.
ortek_service is offline  
Old 9th May 2021, 9:20 am   #65
Mark1960
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,265
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wave solder View Post
I have quite a few PROM programmers in my collection but the only bi-polar programmer is this one which belongs to my Motorola development system.


http://www.garronn-electronics.co.uk/4616.html
Do you have any pictures of that development system fully assembled? It doesn’t look familiar but might be because of its disassembled state.

I think it might be worth moving that post to its own thread. Is there a model number to use in the thread title?
Mark1960 is online now  
Old 9th May 2021, 11:32 am   #66
wave solder
Hexode
 
wave solder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK.
Posts: 481
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark1960 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wave solder View Post
I have quite a few PROM programmers in my collection but the only bi-polar programmer is this one which belongs to my Motorola development system.


http://www.garronn-electronics.co.uk/4616.html
Do you have any pictures of that development system fully assembled? It doesn’t look familiar but might be because of its disassembled state.

I think it might be worth moving that post to its own thread. Is there a model number to use in the thread title?
There was a thread on this forum back in 2007 about it.

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=14671

There is very little information about the system on the Internet but I did find this page in French:-

http://www.silicium.org/oldskool/us/motorola_pds.htm
wave solder is offline  
Old 9th May 2021, 7:15 pm   #67
ortek_service
Octode
 
ortek_service's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK.
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

This Motorola Polyvalent Development System (PDS) gets a mention in this Microcomputers In Great Britain Low-Cost Laboratory-Computing 1978 research paper (along with SC/MP and other systems), as a low-cost version of the more famous Motorola EXORciser / Motorola EXORterm: https://link.springer.com/content/pd...BF03205354.pdf

The EXORciser did interface to a separate EXORdisk 1-4 Floppy Disk unit / EXORtape Paper tape unit / ?? Cassette, operator terminal, a MACE 29/800 Emulator-pods system and a User System Evalulator (USE). Burr Brown made I/O modules that were compatible with the Motorola Micromodule Family Bus used in the EXORciser etc.
- The cards in it do look a bit like the S100 universal bus ones, that seem to be now getting more popular with retro/vintage computer people. although there were many similar sized ones back then. I've got a SWTPC 6800 'Minicomputer' that uses pin rather than edge connectors: http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/d...39/SWTPC-6800/


I do recall seeing Motorola developments systems in one of their databooks / Application Manuals (1975?).- maybe the M6800 Support Products Brochure (May 1976?). I've had a look through all the 6800 Manuals / Books I've got, including an original printed-copy of the MEX68PP3 PROM Programmer-III (for EXORciser etc) User's Guide
- It seems software was on EDOS or MDOS disk, for EXORciser EXbug, but casssette / paper tape was used for other monitor ROM's / systems.

There's probably various Motorola 6800 ones on bitsavers / archive.org / here:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/c...nt_Systems.pdf (1979 version, but does briefly mention PDS etc)
http://www.exorciser.net/excorciser2_en.htm
http://www.exorciser.net/personal/ex...de/eugbrow.pdf
http://www.exorciser.net/personal
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...uter-484170314
ortek_service is offline  
Old 10th May 2021, 12:25 am   #68
ortek_service
Octode
 
ortek_service's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK.
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

The M6800_Microprocessor_Applications_Manual_1975 is amongst similar ones, here: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/c...motorola/6800/
- But it seems too old to include the PDS, and only has the (original?) EXORciser

I found there is actually quite a bit of info on the various boards & M68MD1 5" CRT Monitor / M68MPR1 Printer etc. parts of the PDS in the 1979 catalogue: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/c...nt_Systems.pdf
- However it's a bit all over the place, with searching on "Polyvalent" the easiest way of finding everything in it.

Confusing there seems to be several different ones in the Polyvalent Development Systems Family, which all use the same M68SAC1 (921.6KHz) Stand Alone Computer board etc.:
- M68TDS1 to M68TDS4 M6800 Total Development Systems (TDS)
- The M68ADS / ADW. Autonomous Development Systems
- The M68MEB1 Microprocessor Evaluation Board


Even more confusing, is there's a M68PPR2 PDS PROM Programmer (for the PDS-systems) board - on page 1-89 of the 1979 catalogue, that says 'uses the +5V ± 12V PDS pus power supply', but only lists support for 6 main Motorola (TTL Fusible link PROM's & EPROMs) IC types: MCM7640, MCM7680, MCM68708/2708 (3-rail), MCM7641, MCM7681, TMS2716 (3-rail)

Whereas, your picture shows the MEX68PP3 EROM/PROM Programmer Module (for the EXORciser-system), which says 'EXORciser and Micromodule Family bus compatible' and '57 different EROMs and PROMs can be programmed' - Inc. MCM2716, Intel-2716, Intel-2758 (single-rail) devices in my 1978 2nd Ed, User's Guide for this.

However, as both use the same 86-pin backplane edge-connector, it seemed odd they had these 2 similar-looking but different versions.
- Although it appears the MEX68PP3 does support single-rail EPROM's, that might not be supported by the (maybe lower-cost) M68PPR2
(Plus I don't know if the clock on the EXORciser is 2MHz clock - rather than just under 1MHz on the PDS M68SAC1 board).

Last edited by ortek_service; 10th May 2021 at 12:37 am.
ortek_service is offline  
Old 10th May 2021, 1:11 am   #69
ortek_service
Octode
 
ortek_service's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK.
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
I'm guessing that if you can take a shot of the underside of the PCB, we'd probably like that one in the same super hi-res as top view.

As Owen said, if you can positively identify the +5V and 0V supply rails you can probably power it up to the extent that it will produce a UHF RF signal which can be tuned in on an analogue TV. That's assuming that you don't have the actual power supply for it of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onewatt View Post
I'm visiting site on Monday to collect books and paperwork from a lifetimes interest in electronics. I'll probably have to filter afterwards and it may take me until next weekend, but I'll see what I can find on softy2.

Some more pics which hopefully work for all.
Back to the original post - On what turned out to be a Softy-2:

I've been having a look over the PCB Photos, and found a few things.

1. The DC Power input DIN-Socket is actually 3-pin (even though it looks like a 5-pin one), as there's actually only 3 pins on underside of the PCB (Front 2 are shield ground). If you look carefully, it appears there's only 3 contacts in the holes (unless they used a 5pin one and cut the PCB-pins 4&5 off).

To ensure the correct pin numbers are referred to, I looked for a 5-pin etc. DIN socket picture on the 'net, with the Correct-view ones on it - which was surprisingly difficult to find (Wikipedia etc. doesn't show any numbers, and many are actually the mirrored opposite-view into mating-pins end of plug even though they say it's the socket). But this one does seem right: https://connector.pinouts.ru/5_pin_DIN_female/

2. The middle of the '5' (actually 3?) contacts (Pin 2) is Ground (0V)

3. Pin 1 (The top-right, when looking into socket, with board the correct way-up) goes into the emitter of TR5, whose collector (& Tab) goes to IC13 (7445) Pin16 (Vcc=+5V). So this must be a PNP transistor, and appears to be used in conjunction with TR1/2/3/4 & DZ2(4V3?) to form a (Low-dropout) +5V regulator. So I would guess that voltage on the connector Pin1 would be around +6V - Trying +5.5V to start with and monitoring voltage on the +5V rail should be fairly-safe. Or alternatively, just connecting +5.0V directly to TR5 tab etc. should also be OK.

4. Pin 3 (The top-left, when looking into socket, with board the correct way-up) goes into the input of a 100mA voltage regulat (VR1), whose 'Gnd / Adj' centre-pin goes to cathode of DZ3(20V?) with DZ4 anode to ground. I'm not sure what this regulator type is, as I the photos don't show the right view, but if it was a standard 78L05 this would give +25V output for use as the Vpp programming voltage. So I would guess that voltage on the connector Pin3 would be around +28 to +30V (But should only be required for actually programming EPROM's with it).

So hopefully it should be possible to power it up, even if the original PSU can't be located.

Last edited by ortek_service; 10th May 2021 at 1:21 am.
ortek_service is offline  
Old 10th May 2021, 9:37 am   #70
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,484
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Good analysis Owen - I think we'd best now give onewatt a chance to see if he can find any documentation to confirm what you've worked out.

With regard to DIN plug pin numbering, that has always been a little bit odd, it's as though they started off with 3-pin and then every time they added more pins, they retained the numbering and positioning of the already existing pins and inserted the additional ones 'in between'.
SiriusHardware is offline  
Old 10th May 2021, 10:16 pm   #71
ortek_service
Octode
 
ortek_service's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK.
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Good analysis Owen - I think we'd best now give onewatt a chance to see if he can find any documentation to confirm what you've worked out.
Yes, If he does find a copy of the rather-rare manual, then it would be very-useful to see what's inside that. Although as the Softy-2 was no longer available as a kit, plus supplied with PSU, then I wouldn't be surprised if they no longer gave you detailed info on the PSU connector etc.
- If only there was someone we could find who's got a Softy-2 PSU, as surprisingly it seems Softy-2's are now rarer than the original Softy-1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
With regard to DIN plug pin numbering, that has always been a little bit odd, it's as though they started off with 3-pin and then every time they added more pins, they retained the numbering and positioning of the already existing pins and inserted the additional ones 'in between'.
The DIN pin-numbering system was intentional, with 3pin the 'base-standard' and more pins filling in the gaps so that the pin numbers wouldn't alter if you plugged a 3 pin one into a 5pin 180deg or 5pin into 7pin etc.
However, 4pin types and all the deliberately 270deg 360deg etc. wouldn't mate with these so were rather different
ortek_service is offline  
Old 12th May 2021, 9:28 pm   #72
onewatt
Hexode
 
onewatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Buntingford, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 362
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Hi Guys ,
I Collected a large amount of stuff but no paperwork yet, although the manuals and instructions for a substantial amount of equipment is boxed ready for next trip.
if there was documentation available when the softy was purchased I’d be very surprised if it’s not here.
I’ll update again when I have more to offer.
Regards
Chris
__________________
BVWS, VMARS, RSGB, DEHS, RAOTA

Nothings too big or too heavy, otherwise it wouldn't be where it is!
onewatt is offline  
Old 12th May 2021, 10:34 pm   #73
Timbucus
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Barry, Vale of Glamorgan, Wales, UK.
Posts: 1,362
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

That is great sounds like you are picking up some interesting things!
Timbucus is offline  
Old 16th May 2021, 1:37 pm   #74
ortek_service
Octode
 
ortek_service's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK.
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

A few months ago whilst we were looking into the original Softy-1, I found some EPROM-Programmers pages I'd kept from an old (1989?) Maplin Catalogue and scanned these in. But not sure if I uploaded to original Softy thread, as these only had the Softy-2 by the time of that year.
So I've included a copy of this, for info (for some reason 1200dpi was slightly-smaller file-size, but may have scanned with different B&W / Grey-scale settings), although original pictures weren't that great.

Unfortunately it doesn't show anything about the PSU, but it does include the optional expander adaptor, to use larger-size EPROM's
- But a pain having to select the correct bank-slot in within the larger devices, with the rotary encoded DIL switch.
(Apparently something similar was also-produced for the original Softy, but no-one's found it every advertised anywhere)

Maplin did not seem to sell these Softy-2's for too long, as their 1991 catalogue, had dropped the Softy-2
- Instead, selling an A.R.T. Electronics PC-controlled box (which handled far-more devices) for nearly-half the price that the Softy-2 was.

And it seems the (rather more-devices supported) Dataman S3 replacement was a lot more (> 3x that of the Softy-2). So Maplin probably decided that was a bit too much for their hobbyist customers (Although Maplin had started selling a Gang-of-eight copies, at £400 so between the S2 and S3 prices).
ortek_service is offline  
Old 17th May 2021, 9:32 pm   #75
onewatt
Hexode
 
onewatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Buntingford, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 362
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Hi Guy's
Unbelievable amount of boxed paperwork to go through so I haven't found the paperwork yet for the softy 2 I picked up last visit. This wont be a quick sort unfortunately.
I did how ever find this!
Vy Bst
Chris
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1.jpg
Views:	76
Size:	52.5 KB
ID:	234306  
__________________
BVWS, VMARS, RSGB, DEHS, RAOTA

Nothings too big or too heavy, otherwise it wouldn't be where it is!
onewatt is offline  
Old 17th May 2021, 9:38 pm   #76
onewatt
Hexode
 
onewatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Buntingford, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 362
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

And when I delved a bit deeper I realised it was this!
Attached Files
File Type: zip 4 (2).zip (2.20 MB, 82 views)
File Type: zip 7.zip (2.46 MB, 79 views)
__________________
BVWS, VMARS, RSGB, DEHS, RAOTA

Nothings too big or too heavy, otherwise it wouldn't be where it is!
onewatt is offline  
Old 17th May 2021, 9:57 pm   #77
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,484
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Unbelievable!

Another Softy 2, complete with
-Manual
-EPROM Emulation cable
-Adaptor for programming larger EPROMs in segments
-...Power supply?
SiriusHardware is offline  
Old 17th May 2021, 10:01 pm   #78
onewatt
Hexode
 
onewatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Buntingford, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 362
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Yes, does appear complete and I don’t think it’s had much use.

I’ll get docs scanned at some point and uploaded but might not be for a couple of weeks as I’m away.
Enjoy!
Vy Bst
Chris
__________________
BVWS, VMARS, RSGB, DEHS, RAOTA

Nothings too big or too heavy, otherwise it wouldn't be where it is!
onewatt is offline  
Old 17th May 2021, 10:04 pm   #79
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,484
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

If you would really be so kind, we would love to see good scans of the manual and any circuit diagrams which may or may not be included (There is a circuit diagram under the unit in one of your images but it is not clear whether it is related to the unit).
SiriusHardware is offline  
Old 17th May 2021, 10:08 pm   #80
ortek_service
Octode
 
ortek_service's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK.
Posts: 1,394
Default Re: Early EPROM programmer.

Wow! - that's a great find. And having an original expansion adaptor for it, makes it even better.
Is that actually another Softy-2, or have you put the initial one 'back in the box'?

That schematic for it looks really clear - much better than the copies on the'net for the Softy-1 (Although it seems the original printed one for that was rather small and not too clear, from more recent re-scans of one)

I also note that the (presumably original) manuals look like photocopies.
- Whereas I have seen a printed (colour? photo on cover) Softy-2 one.
So maybe that could indicate that this one was an initial early production model, before they switched to cream-colour casing and produced printed copies of the manual (I've seen it with test equipment etc, as well as some computers, that early ones often came with a preliminary manual)
Although I think the manual for the Softy-1 supplied by GP Electronics, as well as other programmers manufactured by them, were quite basic affairs of stapled sheets.
ortek_service is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 7:49 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.