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Old 30th Apr 2021, 9:27 am   #41
Stockden
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Default Re: PAT Testing.

I’m intrigued by a couple of references in this thread to testing of new equipment. I’d always understood that such testing (as opposed to inspection) wasn’t required. That was certainly the case at my last place of work and seems to be supported by the HSE, which states:

“ New equipment should be supplied in a safe condition and not require a formal portable appliance inspection or test. However, a simple visual check is recommended to verify the item is not damaged.”

Hugh
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 1:06 pm   #42
GrimJosef
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Default Re: PAT Testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockden View Post
“ New equipment should be supplied in a safe condition ...”
To paraphrase the Spartans - 'should' .

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 1:15 pm   #43
emeritus
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Default Re: PAT Testing.

I remember when PAT testing was introduced there were reports of schools being faced with large bills for testing their stuff and being told that it was a legal requirement. The Telegraph published a letter from the responsible government department that confirmed it was not a legal requirement but only advisory. I think the issue may have been that some insurance companies required it, making it effectively a mandatory requirement.

Last edited by emeritus; 30th Apr 2021 at 1:16 pm. Reason: typos
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 2:33 pm   #44
GrimJosef
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Default Re: PAT Testing.

There's also the 'Did you do everything you reasonably could ?' issue. In the event of an accident to someone for whom you have some responsibility the authorities will want to know how much effort you went to to prevent it. They won't expect you to go to ridiculous lengths, but they will want you to have done what you reasonably could. When it came to cost, getting a definition of what was reasonable could be very difficult. The only number I remember was for radiation exposure where extra shielding was considered reasonable if it cost less than £10,000 per man-sievert saved (with the obvious proviso that no individuals should be exposed to more than their legal dose limits).

In my day government facilities, which I imagine would include state schools, didn't generally rely on commercial insurance cover. So the decision about whether to act or not would be an internal one.

Cheers,

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Old 30th Apr 2021, 2:34 pm   #45
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: PAT Testing.

There has always been widespread misunderstanding of what is or is not a legal requirement. Many organisations were led to believe by advertising, or came to believe, that PAT was. It is one way to discharge certain responsibilities under the EAWR / PUWER / HASAW which is statutory and, as mentioned above, it may be an insurance requirement. But like many things electrical, it's not law.

Re. New appliances, there is a potential problem with grey imports etc. which might be new but non-compliant. An initial test should spot the rogues before they get into the system.
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 5:50 pm   #46
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Default Re: PAT Testing.

Today I picked up a very expensive Mettler balance (posh weighing scale) power supply, a simple iron transformer in a box affair, it hinged open exposing live parts. The hinge was the sticker applied by our PAT folks on Wednesday. I went to get it from storage, it hadn't been dropped meanwhile. It had been dropped a while ago I guess, so much for visual inspection.
 
Old 30th Apr 2021, 5:57 pm   #47
G6Tanuki
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Default Re: PAT Testing.

I always considered PAT as demonstrating 'duty of care' towards employees/clients - although not a legal requirement a documented history of tests would constitute generally-comprehensible-by-a-jury evidence that you were acting "in a reasonable, responsible and prudent fashion" in regard to electrical safety.

Thankfully most of the 'stuff' I was involved with either ran on 48V communications-grade DC supplies, or was hard-wired-to-16A-circuits, rack-mounted stuff so escaped PAT because it wasn't portable [unless you had a sack-truck].
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 8:24 pm   #48
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Default Re: PAT Testing.

For me all new stuff may get a sticker just so that guests don't think the item has been missed off the test, I remember when toasters became standard kit and stickering up loads of them.

As for the necessity of it, I work on a caravan site and as such I deem it very much necessary for the let out caravans to be done every year, primarily as stuff may not be looked after as well and is more likely to become damaged as a result (both due to not being used to the items and the lack of care due to it not being yours).

Also as caravans can become damp and as such I have had fridges where the earth pin has become tarnished to the point that the test has failed because of it. Admitedly apart from that failures are minimal but even one failure in my industry makes it worth it.

I do wish some sockets were easier to access though, some microwaves have sockets I cannot reach because they are too high and some dishwashers have the plug right at the back of a cupboard, my hands quite simply don't stretch that far!
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 9:11 pm   #49
pmmunro
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Default Re: PAT Testing.

The concept that "everyting must be PA(T) tested every year " is a very common and misleading myth on several counts. Unfortunately there is a class of person who must have what they believe to be the uniquely correct piece of paper even if what is on it is nonsense.

As is obvious from some of the preceeding posts, intelligent inspection, including user inspection, is even more important;

A year is far too long for some equipment, e.g. power tools used in harsh environments, while other devices in a benign environment may never need to be tested if they are adequately inspected;

there is no test which can usefully be made on many, possibly most, Class II (double insulated) pieces of equipment unless there is accessible conductive material, including contamination. If there are accessible conductive parts, these should be separated from live parts by double or reinforced insulation by design.

As has also been stated, it's important to understand what is being tested and this raises questions for many modern appliances.

Traditionally, it was necessary for the appliance under test to be switched on. How can this be done with which use only electronic switching?

How far into the circuitry of a complex appliance can and should the tests go? For example, a washing machine has many circuits which are only live during certain parts of the cycle but the wiring to these circuits could be damaged. To test these would require the test to last for an entire cycle, and cover every programme.

There is a good case for equipment manufacturers to set out an adequate test regime for their appliances.

PMM
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