PAT testing

[G1RAO keith]

Hi all.

Is there an age limit to PAT testing? For example do I need to get a radio, made in say 1950, PAT tested if I am selling it/

Regards, Keith.

[Herald1360]

Not as such.

Neither is there any legal requirement to do it, but it is a way of demonstrating due diligence with respect to the safety of what you sell. Selling something you know to be unsafe may leave you liable for damages or even criminal prosecution in the event of a problem.

In many cases, an old set will not pass a modern PAT test, indeed it wouldn't have straight from the factory. For such sets in effect a risk analysis is required- they should be at least as safe as originally built, though if there's any chance of accidental contact with any live part (which on some sets there would have been) I'd be inclined not to sell it to anyone who doesn't genuinely understand the risk.

[matthewhouse]

Take the plug off it and sell it as faulty, you can't be responsible then as you have sold it in an obviously faulty condition, with parts missing (the 13amp plug) and in an electrically safe condition (with the plug missing it can't be connected to a mains supply). If the purchaser decides to fit a plug and connect it to the supply it's on their own head.

[Alistair D]

PAT testing has been discussed on here a few times before. Try the search this website for PAT testing I am sure that the results will answer your questions.

Al

[evingar]

Originally Posted by G1RAO keith

Is there an age limit to PAT testing? For example do I need to get a radio, made in say 1950, PAT tested if I am selling it

When I set up the PAT testing regime at work I positively outlawed live chassis equipment and class “0" equipment (single layer of insulation which if fails leaves the user vulnerable to shock).

I would also follow the advice above and only sell equipment with the mains plug removed classified as faulty or for displays purposes only. To be honest, the potential liabilities of doing otherwise just aren’t worth the candle.

[Alistair D]

The issue is not just about selling radios and TVs etc. The problem becomes a real issue for the members that offer their services as restorers. Their sets are meant to be used so must offer a reasonable protection against shock hazards.

Al

Their sets are meant to be used so must offer a reasonable protection against shock hazards.

By insulation, education or common sense (hard to prove), you can buy a shotgun if you have a licence, oddly this licence doesn't require any formal education to get it, just good old common sense.

[saxmaniac]

iI think there shoud also be a distinction between a trader and a private sale. With the latter, the buyer assumes the risk with the item. You can still satisfy yourself that there is an earth and various parts are in good condition, but I don't know if a private buyer could sue a private seller for injury unless the seller had agreed in writing beforehand that is was perfectly safe.

[G1RAO keith]

Hi all.

Thanks for the replies.some very good advice, sounds like better safe than sorry so if I sell any sets they will have the mains plug removed and mains lead cut off or tucked inside the set. Regards keith.

[Radio_Dave]

And describe them as faulty and not working .

David

[Radio Wrangler]

It's simple.

Before you sell anything wether it be a service or goods, take all those precautions you will have wished you'd done after something bad had gone wrong.

Unless you have a time-machine.

David

[McMurdo]

I concur with saxmaniac. As I understand the law, in a private sale, nothing 'used' has to be safe or fit for purpose unless specifically agreed under a contract of sale. It's buyer-beware. A vintage radio is just that...a vintage radio. Unless you sell it specifically as a 'working' vintage radio, it doesn't have to work. In the law it's called 'Title and Description'. Most car boot stalls for example are like this. The issue is when the seller supplies something by way of trade, ie it forms a business in which case it comes under the general terms of the Sale of Goods act, so must not only be as described but also fit for purpose, of merchantable quality, etc. Ebay et al requires you to state whether you are a private or business seller, (also to incur the Distance selling regulations if appropriate); the tax office will want to know if your sales constitute a business, etc.

[G6Tanuki]

The PAT-issue seems open to wide interpretation: a year back one of my clients had a few hundred old-ish [1.2GHz, 2Gb RAM, 320Gb hard-drive] PCs and monitors to dispose of. I tried to interest local schools and some other other non-profit organisations but they all said that the manpower-time and cost of PAT-testing them and re-licensing/re-installing Windows (we had a corporate non-transferable MS licence which required us to scrub the OS from any kit we sold-on) exceeded the residual value of the PCs. So said PCs went to the 'confidential destruction' WEEE channel. Rather a shame.

They were quoting typically £60-a-time plus software-licence-costs to PAT the monitors/PCs and install Win7Pro.

Another third-sector organisation will accept old CRT TVs (28-inch or better), do the PAT-stuff then try to re-sell them for £50 a time. I gather they have quite a few unsold ones - nobody these days wants a TV that does not have a HDMI input!

[happytiger]

Originally Posted by G1RAO keith

Thanks for the replies.some very good advice, sounds like better safe than sorry so if I sell any sets they will have the mains plug removed and mains lead cut off or tucked inside the set. Regards keith.

Cutting off the lead and removing the plug! This is wanton destruction, I would not buy any set in this condition. The lead is part of the receiver and spec.
Besides which I think it's an offence now to sell an electrical appliance without a BS1363 plug, for 240V, or US plug for 120V??

Far better would be to disconnect the lead inside the set.

[Dave Moll]

Originally Posted by happytiger

I think its an offence now to sell an electrical appliance without a BS1363 plug, for 240V, or US plug for 120V.

If this is the case, my local auction house (and many featured on television antiques programmes) are committing that offence on a regular basis!

I would definitely go for the slightly lengthier process of unscrewing the lead from the plug rather than cutting - not least because the latter creates a potentially lethal plug if not disposed of in a secure manner.

[Lucien Nunes]

My preference is to zip-tie the plug into a stout bag or tape it up in such a way that a deliberate act is required to make it ready to plug in, and attach a sign saying (in effect) 'Risk of fire or electric shock, satisfy yourself that this equipment is safe for use before applying power'. I also attach an information sheet with suggestions for safe use of vintage electrical equipment, and how to minimise typical risks. I prefer not to remove properly-wired plugs because many people do not know how to re-fit them safely, thereby adding another hazard!

[Alistair D]

Lucien, add to that a photograph(for your records) showing the wiring as it left you. That way you have a little bit of extra insurance in case of a dispute.

Al

[broadgage]

Originally Posted by Lucien Nunes

My preference is to zip-tie the plug into a stout bag or tape it up in such a way that a deliberate act is required to make it ready to plug in, and attach a sign saying (in effect) 'Risk of fire or electric shock, satisfy yourself that this equipment is safe for use before applying power'. I also attach an information sheet with suggestions for safe use of vintage electrical equipment, and how to minimise typical risks. I prefer not to remove properly-wired plugs because many people do not know how to re-fit them safely, thereby adding another hazard!

That is what I would recomend, and is what I did when selling some non radio vintage equipment.

[boxdoctor]

I do electrical safety testing (F.O.C) of domestic electrical items for a local charity shop.

I am careful not to call it P.A.T. testing.as it is in fact simply checking for faulty or damaged leads, and various resistance tests to detect leakage etc, plus a careful visual inspection of the case or housing of the device.

In the case of old radios or vintage household electrical equipment, a label is attached saying "This item is sold as an item of historical or scientific curiousity and not sold as a working unit." Under this is a disclaimer for any consequences whatsoever of attempting to use the item.

If somebody decides to power it up, then its their risk, not the charity's.

13 amp plugs are normally removed, but old round-pin types are left on, as they are part of the set one could say, and it is unlikely that anyone other than an enthusiast will have a powered socket to plug the item into.