My HMV 109

[Slammer]

Originally Posted by Techman

If I'm honest, I think you paid a bit too much for the gram in the first place considering the state of it and the fact that the motor wasn't even working. However, perhaps they're hard to come by where you are. Getting the motor repaired would probably be something beyond what you'd want to take on yourself - those double spring motors with a deep single barrel can be a bit of a handful if you're not used to them, so taking it to someone was probably the best solution. The motor repair was cheap, so guessing it didn't need spring
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=149161

Is that was an interesting read. I do think that I paid too much for the gram, but I did some price checking ant it was in the bracket of acceptable. Perhaps the prices here differ to those in the UK.
I simply donÂ’t have the space here to work on it like you describe and even this small relatively speaking gram is taking almost a quarter of my space up.
I love the finish on that machine, silky and not shiny. How did you do it?

[Techman]

Originally Posted by Slammer

I love the finish on that machine, silky and not shiny. How did you do it?

Unbelievably It's floor paint!

It's a very hard varnish stain called Diamond Glaze - satin finish. Contractors had been using it at work and when they'd finished they threw what was left of the part used tins in the skip, so I scavenged them. I'd had them kicking around for about 15 years and I had to virtually destroy the tin in getting the lid off. It's water based and you wash out the brushes with water before it sets, but once it sets it's like a rock hard resin coat, probably not what you really ought to use on a vintage gramophone, but it worked well in this particular instance because the original was in such bad condition, so anything was going to be an improvement. If you look closely you can tell that the exact 'tint' doesn't quite match the original oak colour of the gramophone, but it's good enough to now be in the living room of the house and the hard surface of the top isn't easily scratched!

[Slammer]

If anybody is interested here is the site from where I got my price levels from.https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-gramophon/k0
It´s in German but the pictures show what you get and how much.

[Slammer]

Picked up the motor from Michael this afternoon, a spring was broken and the drum gummed up as if solid.
Repaired and now it runs as smooth as, as... as... a gramophone.
He replaced the hard rubber in the soundbox and I picked up 100 needles, the hard ones that last for up to ten sides.
The motor cost 34 Euros
Soundbox, 12 Euros and the needles for a tenner.
I think that is as good as it gets.
Michael says Hi to the forum and let me take some pictures.

[Slammer]

More piccies and this is how I received the soundbox, in a HMV box.

[Slammer]

If it works, it ain´t stupid.
A soundbox made from one leg of a set of pointers and a showerhead.
And a governor made from stacks of Pfennige, the youngest one from 1974

[Ed_Dinning]

Some great innovation there

Ed

[Slammer]

What sorcery is this? I was so proud of the finish I got to the cabinet, shellacked and polished and now the lid has delaminated.
Could it be to do with the fact that I used the orbital polisher I use on my motorbike?
Blew a rail of glue into the delamination with compressed air and piled dive weights on, hope it sticks.

[Slammer]

IT´S ALIVE, IT´S ALIVE, IT´S ALIVE.
My one room pokey hole bedsit under the roof has just been filled with Tennessee Ernie Ford, Vera Lynn, the Tritsch tratsch polka and Gustav Holst.

And I get the total satisfaction of watching the jaws of the kids downstairs hit the floor, they were looking at me as if I had stepped out of H.G.Wells´s time machine.
Not quite there yet. still got a few "bugs" to iron out, but I have a Cheshire cat grin on my mug right now and I have decided that I want another "Gram"

But! There is always a "but" isn´t there?
As a technician I always take pictures when I am ripping the guts out of an unfamiliar machine. It´s rule number one.... Only I didn´t do it here and now I have a few parts left over that has left me scratching my head. Can anybody help place them?

[Audio1950]

Aren't the two wooden pieces the ones you pictured in your post No.5? The bit in the middle is the actuator for the automatic brake. It screws on the base of the arm (not the black base) and you should see two screw holes to attach it to. The protruding pin on the end goes between the forks of the brake that should stick out from under the turntable

Barry

[Slammer]

Originally Posted by Audio1950

Aren't the two wooden pieces the ones you pictured in your post No.5? The bit in the middle is the actuator for the automatic brake. It screws on the base of the arm (not the black base) and you should see two screw holes to attach it to. The protruding pin on the end goes between the forks of the brake that should stick out from under the turntable

Barry

By jove, you are correct, must have had tomatoes on my eyes.

[Slammer]

And there you have it. Nice and finished and next to my beloved Murphy 104 baffleboard wireless.

I do notice one or two things that I did not expect.
For one a "wind" hardly gives me a full side and it has a tendency to "Egging"
(translation fails on this one) it seems to lose speed and gain it again, which makes the sound rather discordant. Any known cure for this?

[Audio1950]

This is usually caused by sticky governors. There is a central shaft that is held at either end by the adjustable sockets. As the speed picks up, the weights fly outwards and pull the whole assembly along that shaft. What often happens is that dirt gathers on the shaft, especially if the motor hasn't been used for some time. That means that the governor assembly can't travel smoothly along the shaft, and sticks then frees itself intermittently. The whole governor assembly needs to be taken out, and the weight assembly removed from the shaft, Then the shaft needs to be cleaned and polished, also the inner tube of the assembly (do this with a cotton bud soaked in thinners, turps or petrol). Reassemble, and put a drop of thin oil (NOT 3-in-1) on the shaft and all should be well. When you put the governors back, adjust the sockets so that there is about a mm end play.

Barry

[Cobaltblue]

The Governor has been worked on see post #26

Cheers

Mike T

[Audio1950]

Originally Posted by Cobaltblue

The Governor has been worked on see post #26

Cheers

Mike T

Ah, but the motor in post #26 is not the motor from the HMV 109 that is the subject of the thread. I think that motor was posted just to show a bit of ingenuity!

Barry

[Slammer]

Originally Posted by Audio1950

Ah, but the motor in post #26 is not the motor from the HMV 109 that is the subject of the thread. I think that motor was posted just to show a bit of ingenuity!

Barry

THe governor sits freely on the spindle, I´m thinking that it is perhaps something to do with the actual record, as other records play just fine. Still not too sure how tight to wind it and am a bit frightened of overwinding the spring.

[Audio1950]

Originally Posted by Slammer

THe governor sits freely on the spindle, I´m thinking that it is perhaps something to do with the actual record, as other records play just fine. Still not too sure how tight to wind it and am a bit frightened of overwinding the spring.

You can't "overwind" a gramophone spring. You could break it by continuing to wind it forcefully, but you'd have to be pretty strong! Wind it until you feel definite resistance, then stop.

Barry

[Slammer]

Originally Posted by Audio1950

You can't "overwind" a gramophone spring. You could break it by continuing to wind it forcefully, but you'd have to be pretty strong! Wind it until you feel definite resistance, then stop.

Barry

Still trying to be careful with an almost 100 year old machine.

[Techman]

Originally Posted by Slammer

Still trying to be careful with an almost 100 year old machine.

Absolutely!

Overwinding is when you wind it up far too tightly and it goes 'bang' and you've got a broken spring - or in the case of the one I linked to earlier, not only a broken spring but the hook on the barrel bent right back on itself!

Earlier on I let my gramophone shown in that earlier link run right down until it stopped with no record on the platter. I then wound it fully and it took 49 turns of the winding handle to fully wind it, so that should give you some idea, it then was able to play three ten inch record sides without needing a rewind.

The usual problem with the fault you describe is due to the governor disc not sliding along the shaft as the weights spin out, but you say that governor is working as it should. In one of your pictures it looks as if the soundbox is too 'upright', causing the needle to dig into the records - this would slow things down and also damage the records. It may be a trick of the angle that the photo was taken at, but remember, the needle has to be at a fair angle and not like a record player stylus.

Below is a picture of my HMV gramophone soundbox on a record to show the correct angle.

[Slammer]

Originally Posted by Techman

Absolutely!

Overwinding is when you wind it up far too tightly and it goes 'bang' and you've got a broken spring - or in the case of the one I linked to earlier, not only a broken spring but the hook on the barrel bent right back on itself!

Earlier on I let my gramophone shown in that earlier link run right down until it stopped with no record on the platter. I then wound it fully and it took 49 turns of the winding handle to fully wind it, so that should give you some idea, it then was able to play three ten inch record sides without needing a rewind.

The usual problem with the fault you describe is due to the governor disc not sliding along the shaft as the weights spin out, but you say that governor is working as it should. In one of your pictures it looks as if the soundbox is too 'upright', causing the needle to dig into the records - this would slow things down and also damage the records. It may be a trick of the angle that the photo was taken at, but remember, the needle has to be at a fair angle and not like a record player stylus.

Below is a picture of my HMV gramophone soundbox on a record to show the correct angle.

Oh wow, I am learning so much here, I will have to look into that, I read somewhere that the needle should be at 60°, now it is on a slant but I´ll check.
As to winding; I wind ten or thirteen times before I feel a, "After tight comes damn" tightness, this will give the table enough revs to spin one side of the record, I have had to give the handle a spin or two during the play, so I´m thinking that something is not right.