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Old 1st May 2022, 2:18 pm   #1
Slammer
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Default My HMV 109

As I wrote on another tread I found a HMV 109 gramophone, exactly the kind I was looking for.
So yesterday I fired up the Astra and drove from the shores of the Ammersee to Traunstein to pick the thing up.
It was advertised on Ebay Kleinanzeigen for 99 Euros and the pictures did it justice, I have just recently picked up my mothers stuff from the UK including her Schellack records, so I thought: "Why not?"
The cabinet is so-lala, not too bad, not too good, some TLC and it should be alright again.
But!
The handle spins in the ratchet but it does not engage the spring, everything else works fine. So stupid me, instead of haggling down I paid the asking price.
Kicking myself right at this moment.
But it is neither here or there, this thing must run.
So let me take you on this little journey to get a HMV 109 happily spinning again.

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Old 1st May 2022, 2:26 pm   #2
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Default Re: My HMV 109

I have taken the mechanical gubbins out and now I know that 100 year old grease can turn into window putty. Dredged around 40 needles and bits of Bamboo(?) out of the grunge.
I sent out a few mails and found a gramophone workshop very near me in Munich, the prices are reasonable and I will take the mechanics there tomorrow.
I would like to do this myself, but in my Micro-Flat without tools... not a chance.
https://grammophonwerkstatt.de/


Aaand this is what I am working with.
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Old 1st May 2022, 2:28 pm   #3
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Default Re: My HMV 109

Now my flat reeks of cleaning petrol and I am off to the Biergarten for a Maß or two.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 4:48 pm   #4
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Default Re: My HMV 109

Took the motor to the Gramaphone shop, was invited in and felt like Carter opening King Tut´s tomb.
Quote: "I see wonderful things!"
It was down in the cellar and to call it "cluttered" is like calling a lawn full of grass. There was only a narrow rat run to a workbench and if the cellar had walls then they were far away and full of gramophones of all shapes and sizes, Radios that you have to call "Wirelesses" including one or two Göbbels Schnauzen, Göbbels gob Volksempfänger from the 40ties. Bakelite telephones, spare parts to make you weep and, and, and.
Next time I´m there I´l see if I can get pictures.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 7:07 pm   #5
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Default Re: My HMV 109

We have wormsign...
Was watching Dune last night, love the movie, Starwars for intellectuals I hear it being called.
Anyway. Seems that there have been a few worms in the wood, no new wormshit so I think that they have moved on or are now dead and the HMV is haunted by wormghosts.
with closer inspection you can see that the back of the cabinet has warped out of it´s nut and feather joints and some ****** glued it back in with acidic glue.
I´ll take it down to the local carpenter and see what he thinks.
Dredged out another 40 needles, so I don´t need to fear running out of pointy bits. There was one oddity though, one needle did not look like a needle but more like a spear.
Anybody know why?
I think that my current question is: "How far am I going to go down this rabbit hole?" Apart from the 90 Euros for the Gramophone, now 30 to 40 Euros for the refurbishment of the motor and maybe another 50 for the cabinet.
200 Big ones all in all, if I am lucky BRRRR! But I get to fiddle with something new.
I can hear y´all experts sighing from here, but remember, it´s my first Gramophone.
By the way, the horn is painted dark brown, doesn´t seem to be standard paint, anybody know what it could be?
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Old 2nd May 2022, 7:33 pm   #6
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Default Re: My HMV 109

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Originally Posted by Slammer View Post
Dredged out another 40 needles, so I don´t need to fear running out of pointy bits.
I expect you know the needles should only be used to play one side of a record.

This looks like a good machine. Woodworm often confine their activity to the plywood in gramophones of this age as the plywood used fish glue.
Good luck.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 7:43 pm   #7
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Default Re: My HMV 109

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There was one oddity though, one needle did not look like a needle but more like a spear.
Anybody know why?
These are "spearpoint" needles, the theory behind them is that by turning them so that the flat part faces the front, the needle is thicker at that point, so becomes a loud tone needle, whereas if the flat part faces the side, the needle is thinner, and so becomes a soft tone. As with all needles, the thicker they are, the louder the volume, (and the more wear to your records!) Stick to soft or medium tone.

Barry
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Old 2nd May 2022, 9:37 pm   #8
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Default Re: My HMV 109

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Dredged out another 40 needles, so I don´t need to fear running out of pointy bits.
I expect you know the needles should only be used to play one side of a record.

This looks like a good machine. Woodworm often confine their activity to the plywood in gramophones of this age as the plywood used fish glue.
Good luck.
I think it actually could be a good machine as soon as it is finished. The guy told me that when the putty has been removed (soaking in petroleum for a few days) it will run fine, the parts are tight and in a new-ish condition, it doesn´t seem that the owners have been using it too often. I hear that as these gramophones are the early 20th century equivalent of the Iphone they tend to be clapped out by the time they reach the 21st century.
He also told me to bring the soundbox round and have the rubber rings changed as they have probably never been replaced and will be hardened which gives a rough sound.
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Old 3rd May 2022, 10:30 am   #9
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Default Re: My HMV 109

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Originally Posted by Slammer View Post

.....

with closer inspection you can see that the back of the cabinet has warped out of its nut and feather joints

.....

What an evocative idea, but what sort of joint is it? I guess it's a literal translation of a technical name which can result in some strange results in the destination language.

Dovetail, comb, something else again?

https://www.craftsmanspace.com/woodworking-joints

may be helpful?
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Old 3rd May 2022, 7:48 pm   #10
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Default Re: My HMV 109

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Originally Posted by Herald1360 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slammer View Post

.....

with closer inspection you can see that the back of the cabinet has warped out of its nut and feather joints

.....

What an evocative idea, but what sort of joint is it? I guess it's a literal translation of a technical name which can result in some strange results in the destination language.

L
Dovetail, comb, something else again?
https://www.craftsmanspace.com/woodworking-joints

may be helpful?
Let´s go with Tongue and groove.
Which literaly translated into German is.... rather X-rated.

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Old 6th May 2022, 1:26 pm   #11
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Default Re: My HMV 109

Took the box to a local carpenters and they are going to use clamps to try to pull the tongues back onto the grooves.

Should be ready tomorrow.

Last edited by Cobaltblue; 6th May 2022 at 1:59 pm. Reason: Immature comment removed
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Old 6th May 2022, 5:29 pm   #12
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Default Re: My HMV 109

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.....

Let´s go with Tongue and groove.
Which literaly translated into German is.... rather X-rated.



Tongue and groove seems odd for a cabinet joint- it's normally used for flooring planks or wall cladding where the long sides of the plank have a groove on one side and a corresponding tongue on the other.

A box or comb joint or its fancier relative the dovetail is more common.
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Old 7th May 2022, 11:33 am   #13
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Default Re: My HMV 109

Riight, picked up the cabinet from the carpenters and have to admit he did a good job, got the old glue out, reglued the joints and clamped them.
Cost 45 Euros.
Why, I hear you asking, did he not do it himself, it´s not rocket science?
Don´t have clamps... Arrived back in Germany after a 20 year hiatus with nothing more than two suitcases and a backpack.
Clamps cost 28 Euros a pop for the size I would need and then there is glue to buy at 6 Euros.
Not that I am on too tight a budget but all the same, and then there is not a lot of space in my one room pokey hole under the roof. So for the sake of a few bucks I get it done professionally.
Having said that, just done some calculations.
The "gram" cost me 80 Euros, cabinet; 45, the motor refurbishment another 40. Then yesterday I went out and bought. Brushes, two, sandpaper 280grain, felt, green. Shellack and a small tin of black paint. Another 48 Euros.
Already over 200 Euros. Makes you wonder if paying more for a gram in better condition would have been the better option.
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Old 7th May 2022, 12:09 pm   #14
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Default Re: My HMV 109

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Quote:
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.....

Let´s go with Tongue and groove.
Which literaly translated into German is.... rather X-rated.



Tongue and groove seems odd for a cabinet joint- it's normally used for flooring planks or wall cladding where the long sides of the plank have a groove on one side and a corresponding tongue on the other.

A box or comb joint or its fancier relative the dovetail is more common.
The edges of the box are tapered at 45° and in the picture you can see how the joints are connected.
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Old 8th May 2022, 10:01 am   #15
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Default Re: My HMV 109

Washed the cabinet with dishsoap, dried it and gave a first coat of Ferdinand Freres shellack sanding sealer and let it dry, buffed the wood with 280grain sandpaper then applied a coat of OBI Shellack.
I did not believe it would come this nice but it looks great.
I also did not believe that shellack fumes would smell like Grappa, at least to me, or that they would have such a kick.
Time to fire up the motorbike and clear my head.
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Old 8th May 2022, 10:21 am   #16
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Default Re: My HMV 109

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Already over 200 Euros. Makes you wonder if paying more for a gram in better condition would have been the better option.
This a common problem with restoring old things. Sometimes the "bargains" aren't cheap after all once you've factored-in all the stuff you need to buy to repair them.

However: If you enjoy the repair and restoration process, then it's money well spent. Similarly, you will get a sense of great satisfaction every time you see or use the item, which you wouldn't necessarily have had if you'd just bought it. Thirdly, if the item ever goes wrong, you will be in a far better position to know what's wrong and rectify it than if you'd just bought a plug-and-play, pre-restored item. Things also get cheaper if you intend to repair other items later, for example, the paint and shellac polish you bought will probably be enough to renovate multiple cabinets, and buying electronic components in bulk is always cheaper than just grabbing what you need for a solitary restoration (though I appreciate that storage space is an issue for you).

And obviously, doing this kind of thing to make a profit is very hard indeed; many people end up selling their treasures for less than their total outlay when they get bored or run out of space.

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Old 8th May 2022, 10:23 am   #17
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Default Re: My HMV 109

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Quote:
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Quote:
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.....

Let´s go with Tongue and groove.
Which literaly translated into German is.... rather X-rated.



Tongue and groove seems odd for a cabinet joint- it's normally used for flooring planks or wall cladding where the long sides of the plank have a groove on one side and a corresponding tongue on the other.

A box or comb joint or its fancier relative the dovetail is more common.
The edges of the box are tapered at 45° and in the picture you can see how the joints are connected.
I think a "splined mitre joint" is what this is, see image 45 here: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...pg?format=750w
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Old 8th May 2022, 10:37 am   #18
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Default Re: My HMV 109

Ah, that joint took a bit of finding the actual name. It's a splined mitre joint. Stronger than a simple mitre with similar clean outside appearance.

https://www.woodcraft.com/blog_entries/splined-miter

(miter is US spelling)

A picture paints a thousand words!

Thanks for your patience.
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Old 8th May 2022, 4:38 pm   #19
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Already over 200 Euros. Makes you wonder if paying more for a gram in better condition would have been the better option.
This a common problem with restoring old things. Sometimes the "bargains" aren't cheap after all once you've factored-in all the stuff you need to buy to repair them.

However: If you enjoy the repair and restoration process, then it's money well spent. Similarly, you will get a sense of great satisfaction every time you see or use the item, which you wouldn't necessarily have had if you'd just bought it. Thirdly, if the item ever goes wrong, you will be in a far better position to know what's wrong and rectify it than if you'd just bought a plug-and-play, pre-restored item. Things also get cheaper if you intend to repair other items later, for example, the paint and shellac polish you bought will probably be enough to renovate multiple cabinets, and buying electronic components in bulk is always cheaper than just grabbing what you need for a solitary restoration (though I appreciate that storage space is an issue for you).

And obviously, doing this kind of thing to make a profit is very hard indeed; many people end up selling their treasures for less than their total outlay when they get bored or run out of space.
Totally agree with you, just don´t mind me writing about prices it´s being from Blackburn originally and now living in Swabia where bitching about spending money is the default setting.
I am very much enjoying this restauration and fear that this maybe the start of something interesting.
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Old 8th May 2022, 10:22 pm   #20
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Default Re: My HMV 109

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The "gram" cost me 80 Euros, cabinet; 45, the motor refurbishment another 40. Then yesterday I went out and bought. Brushes, two, sandpaper 280grain, felt, green. Shellack and a small tin of black paint. Another 48 Euros.
Already over 200 Euros. Makes you wonder if paying more for a gram in better condition would have been the better option.
If I'm honest, I think you paid a bit too much for the gram in the first place considering the state of it and the fact that the motor wasn't even working. However, perhaps they're hard to come by where you are. Getting the motor repaired would probably be something beyond what you'd want to take on yourself - those double spring motors with a deep single barrel can be a bit of a handful if you're not used to them, so taking it to someone was probably the best solution. The motor repair was cheap, so guessing it didn't need spring replacement.

You don't necessarily need sash clamps when gluing cabinet joints back together, you just need a corridor or even a suitable door frame in your house. Years ago when I didn't have any large clamps I actually glued a gramophone cabinet back together using blocks of wood and wedges between two walls in the house - a corridor or hallway of the right width is ideal. Sometimes an old car scissor jack can be useful, but make sure that what you're jacking against is strong enough to take it. You've got to get the old brain into action and start "thinking outside the box" as the old saying goes, or as another old saying goes "where there's a will there's a way"!

Below is a link to an old thread of mine that you might want to skim through, where I repaired a gramophone in probably worse condition than yours. The two larger sash clamps that you see in one of the pictures cost a couple of quid from a boot sale. They're both missing the foot, but you can soon get round that with small blocks etc. One of the two springs in the motor barrel was broken, so I repaired it. I prefer to try to repair the original spring, as I don't particularly rate the new replacements these days. I could be wrong about new springs, but all the failures you tend to hear about seem to be replacement springs failing again.
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=149161
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