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Old 8th Oct 2022, 6:18 pm   #21
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: The first CD players.

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Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
Interesting info Ted, I've learnt something there. I'm a bit bemused though because given that Sony and Philips created the famed “Red Book” standard, you'd have thought that manufacturers would have 'gone down the same path'? Apparently not, from what you say they didn't. Or did the Red Book only give so much information to get going?
The Red Book was more concerned with the disc itself - how manufacturers dealt with playing it was up to them. So we had first-generation machines with one 14-bit 4x oversampled convertor per channel to give 16 bit resolution, multiplexed single convertor with 2x oversampling, giving 5.5uS time shift between channels and baseband multiplexed single convertor, giving 11uS time shift. As David has pointed out, baseband conversion required more severe filtering than oversampled, and this probably had some effect on sound as well - the impulse response was certainly different.

Incidentally, when Sony launched DAT a few years later, they were determined to make the best machine they could to ensure the format's success. So the DTC1000 had Philips 16 bit oversampling D-A convertors!
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Old 8th Oct 2022, 6:45 pm   #22
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Default Re: The first CD players.

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I went to have a listen and you could immediately hear it was one of those early Japanese players that time shared one DAC between the two channels.
When I was testing a customers first generation Toshiba XR-Z90 which used a Sony CX890 or CX20017 DAC, however there was a discernible phase shift noted between left and right channels which changed according to frequency. Playing Technics test disc CDT-001 revealed the phase shift started at around 3kHz and ended up near 180° at 20kHz!.

I once owned a Philips CD202 and discovered the TDA1540D converters (and a large chunk of support circuitry) had been replaced by a CX20017 together with clock signals generated by PLL. All this had been clumsily crammed into a screened box. Guess they ran into supply issues and wanted to maintain production.

Philips CD104 is the player of choice.
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Old 10th Oct 2022, 1:03 pm   #23
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There was some dispute in the early days as to whether it was acceptable to multiplex a single DAC or whether you needed two. Sony claimed the phase shift wouldn't be audible in normal use, and went for a single DAC design for the CDP101, which was very influential among Japanese makers.
.
Fortunately the others improved it, then as the CDP-101 is a dreadful sounding thing! To my ears, it's a full bingo card of all the things people criticised about CD when it first came out - hard, strident, no decent bass etc.

The CD-100, by contrast, is a very nice player.
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Old 10th Oct 2022, 1:13 pm   #24
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Default Re: The first CD players.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wd40addict View Post
I went to have a listen and you could immediately hear it was one of those early Japanese players that time shared one DAC between the two channels.
When I was testing a customers first generation Toshiba XR-Z90 which used a Sony CX890 or CX20017 DAC, however there was a discernible phase shift noted between left and right channels which changed according to frequency. Playing Technics test disc CDT-001 revealed the phase shift started at around 3kHz and ended up near 180° at 20kHz!.

I once owned a Philips CD202 and discovered the TDA1540D converters (and a large chunk of support circuitry) had been replaced by a CX20017 together with clock signals generated by PLL. All this had been clumsily crammed into a screened box. Guess they ran into supply issues and wanted to maintain production.

Philips CD104 is the player of choice.
Rich
Hi Ted, being as you mentioned the model I googled it and one of the results was a completed online sale. The seller had implemented a complete service and said, "Most importantly, particular attention was paid to remedy the well documented ‘griplet’ problem. They were bypassed with proper through-board wire links. - Simply resoldering them is never a permanent cure." What is this griplet problem? I'm just curious, I'm not looking to buy a CD104.
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Old 10th Oct 2022, 1:38 pm   #25
Leon Crampin
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Default Re: The first CD players.

The CD104 used double sided print on most boards, and rather than using plated through holes to give continuity between tracks on opposite board faces, Philips used crude rivets which they called "griplets". Of course, these were a major source of trouble as they were not always fully soldered and were mostly used to connect together earth planes.

Luckily the griplets were hollow, so a wire link through it, soldered to the track on each side was a straightforward fix. Finding them all was far less straightforward....

Other CD104 problems are poor power supply regulator heatsinking, poor joints on the regulators due to thermal stress (fit wire links) and a bad "tray in" switch design - fixable with a better microswitch fitted elsewhere on the tray mechanism. Loading belts need to be good and tight.

Otherwise, a very good player. I have a pristine specimen.

Leon.
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Old 10th Oct 2022, 1:41 pm   #26
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Default Re: The first CD players.

I owned this Marantz CD 63 for many years before it found a new home back in the Netherlands.

It worked very well and luckily in my ownership did not require any work, although having been left idle for some years it required some coaxing for the disc to spin up, but once it did so, gave no further trouble.

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Old 10th Oct 2022, 2:23 pm   #27
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Default Re: The first CD players.

I had a CD104 a whlie ago. The great advantage was that it would play damaged discs that many other machines turned thier noses up at. It read the TOC quicker than any other machine I know - and sounded prettty good too!

I now have a CD63SE - the 1994 version which works well.
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Old 10th Oct 2022, 3:36 pm   #28
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Default Re: The first CD players.

There's an excellent article from the early 1990s(?) in Television magazine, about servicing the CD104. Probably available on the American Radio History website. Probably by Mike Leach.
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Old 10th Oct 2022, 7:58 pm   #29
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Default Re: The first CD players.

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Originally Posted by Leon Crampin View Post
The CD104 used double sided print on most boards, and rather than using plated through holes to give continuity between tracks on opposite board faces, Philips used crude rivets which they called "griplets". Of course, these were a major source of trouble as they were not always fully soldered and were mostly used to connect together earth planes.

Luckily the griplets were hollow, so a wire link through it, soldered to the track on each side was a straightforward fix. Finding them all was far less straightforward....

Other CD104 problems are poor power supply regulator heatsinking, poor joints on the regulators due to thermal stress (fit wire links) and a bad "tray in" switch design - fixable with a better microswitch fitted elsewhere on the tray mechanism. Loading belts need to be good and tight.

Otherwise, a very good player. I have a pristine specimen.

Leon.
Thanks Leon.
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Old 10th Oct 2022, 8:39 pm   #30
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Default Re: The first CD players.

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The CD104 <snip>
Otherwise, a very good player. I have a pristine specimen.
I used a non-oversampled (therefore 14-bit) 104 for a number of years. I wish I still had it - the replacement CD players have always failed to impress me. There are several ways to address the griplet issue and the power supply inadequacy, mine was so treated.
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Old 10th Oct 2022, 8:46 pm   #31
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Default Re: The first CD players.

The CD104 did use early 14 bit DACs though, and while it certainly sounded good by the standards of the day, later designs are much better. Of course, sound quality perception is very subjective though.

My Marantz CD63 (1982) does produce some odd HF effects which aren't there with more modern designs, though overall it still sounds pleasant enough.
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Old 12th Oct 2022, 5:42 pm   #32
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Default Re: The first CD players.

Just to add my twopennth. My first CD player was the Ferguson CD01 which was a Sony clone of which I'm not sure! The only thing I ever found wrong was a slight fuzz/tizz on violin pieces.
The same disc on a later bitstream player was fine.

As regards the Philip's CD104, fixed loads of them. The feed through links were sods to find but easy to solder. My violin solo CD sounded OK on these as well.

I binned the Ferguson/Sony because of a worn spindle bearing.
Stupid thing to do now I know. At the time players were cheap and early units were not saleable. One other thing it suffered was DC drift on the secondary power supply. The supplies went high or low and this upset the servo's. Anyone else had similar?

Overall unless you're listening on good equipment and very closely, I still think you'd be pushed to hear much difference between an early eighties unit to a modern player.

SJM
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Old 12th Oct 2022, 5:52 pm   #33
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Default Re: The first CD players.

That tizzy top end with certain instrumental colours is very characteristic of early players - even the first and second generation Philips machines suffered from it. It sounds for all the world like a problem with the speaker tweeters. Better DACs got rid of it.
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Old 13th Oct 2022, 9:43 am   #34
Edward Huggins
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Default Re: The first CD players.

I did not expect the thread (and the later, er, "spin-off" thread WRT to The Red Book) would produce such carefully considered and informative replies. Thank you to all. There is much to ponder here. I would agree that the "tininess" of those early models did invite a prejudice that stayed on for many years vis-a-vis vinyl. Given the later improvements in DAC design, it is surprising that there no was manufacturer who attempted to re-create a "vinyl-analogue" sound whilst retaining all the other virtues of the CD. This happened with some Solid-State Guitar Amplifier producers who tried to simulate a "valved sound".
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