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Old 3rd Feb 2014, 9:53 am   #1
Billy T
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Default Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

I may be dreaming, but I seem to recall reading a post on the web, maybe this site but maybe not, where the writer was describing the making of a close matching colour for small cracks or splits using wood dust and PVA glue, however site and Google searches have failed to throw up any likely hits.

I have some splits and pits to fill and have the necessary matching wood colour to sand to produce the filler. I plan to use a metal 'sanding disk' to avoid grit appearing in the filler.

Has anybody heard of this type of procedure? I have been singularly unsuccessful in finding a commercial filler that even comes close!

Cheers

Billy
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Old 3rd Feb 2014, 10:09 am   #2
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

I've used it many times.

It's most important to squeeze most of the PVA out of the mixture so your filling is mostly wood and not much PVA to get the colour better.

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Old 3rd Feb 2014, 1:23 pm   #3
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

Perhaps you were thinking of the recent thread about making colour matched repairs to plastics by adding dust or pigment to Araldite.

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=102708
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Old 4th Feb 2014, 9:34 am   #4
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

This was a trick taught to me by my woodwork teacher in the 1980's for hiding screw holes and cracks. Use more wood dust than PVA though or it will stand out like a sore thumb.

Regards, Robin.
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Old 4th Feb 2014, 10:14 am   #5
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

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Originally Posted by emeritus View Post
Perhaps you were thinking of the recent thread about making colour matched repairs to plastics by adding dust or pigment to Araldite.
Unfortunately not, I know that one and have used it. It is getting a better match for soft woods like cedar that is my problem. Commercial fillers are 'one colour fits all' and the end result is a bit too obvious for my liking. RW has confirmed my recollections and added the crucial information necessary to make a successful repair, for which I am very grateful.

Cheers

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Old 4th Feb 2014, 11:00 am   #6
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

There's also the chippie's trick of mixing instant coffee powder with filler, adjust amount while mixing to match original shade.
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Old 5th Feb 2014, 6:33 am   #7
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

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There's also the chippie's trick of mixing instant coffee powder with filler
I like the idea, but there might be a significant change in colour when it dries. I guess that the best idea is to make a series of batches and keep a record of the mixing ratios. Modern electronic scales are good down to a few grams, and if you buy the super sensitive type (beloved of drug dealers) then it would be even easier.

I can imagine the conversation though: "Honest officer, I only use it for mixing up wood filler!" Garn! Pull the other leg, you've got 'wood powder' in your nose etc etc.................

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Old 5th Feb 2014, 1:33 pm   #8
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy T View Post
I may be dreaming, but I seem to recall reading a post on the web, maybe this site but maybe not, where the writer was describing the making of a close matching colour for small cracks or splits using wood dust and PVA glue, however site and Google searches have failed to throw up any likely hits
This technique is used frequently, but PVA isn’t much favoured by anyone I know.

My other hobby is woodturning and woodworking, and like most woodworkers and woodturners I know I haven’t used PVA for several years. Instead, I use Aliphatic Resin Adhesive such as ‘Titebond’ often colloquially known as ‘yeller’ due to its colour, though it sets clear. It has many advantages over PVA (often known as ‘white’), in that it has good grip and by simply rubbing two segments of wood together for a few seconds and leaving it for 15 mins without clamping, additional segments can be added, making it much favoured by segmented bowl turners. It dries transparent and the glue line is virtually invisible.

For filling cracks in such things as bowls being turned on a lathe, most woodturners use cyanoacrylate (CA or ‘super glue’) mixed with wood flour (dust) saved from sanding activites. Of course, when turning and sanding a bowl, you have the advantage of plenty of fine dust of the correct shade being available with which to mix the glue. I keep several types of wood-flour from my band-saw or sanding on the lathe in little plastic craft containers used for beads etc for filling cracks and gaps mixed with either CA or titebond. (As an aside, I also mix wood flour with shellac for fixing loose valves onto their bases as that’s what the original adhesive was. To completely remove top caps or bases from valves, they need to be soaked in meths to dissolve the shellac).

In your case Billy, you have wood dust of the correct shade to hand, so if you mix it with say CA and force it into the cracks with the flat of a chisel or putty knife, when sanded it should hopefully blend in nicely. Try not to get CA onto the surface of the wood as it may dry white and stain the wood, but usually sands off nicely with say 220G paper. It has the advantage of drying in a few secs.

There’s an interesting and informative paper entitled ‘Nulling Voids: Filling Cracks and Holes in Wood’ here:

http://www.lynneyamaguchi.com/filling_cracks_rev.pdf

An Informative website about the properties of various types of adhesives from PVA to epoxy, CA etc can be found here:

http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/russ6.shtml

Clarinets and other woodwind instruments such as oboes - if not made of plastic - are usually made of African blackwood and occasionally crack due to variations in temperature and humidity. Repairs are generally made using CA and wood dust:

http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard...26855&t=326855

CA glue is also commonly used by pen turners to polish and finish pens as it’s very durable and high gloss. Nothing else quite stands up to the wear and tear of fingers on the pen barrel.

I’ve attached a pic of the stackable plastic containers I use for storing various shades of wood-flour, along with shllac sanding sealer, and ‘Titebond Original’ and ‘Titebond ‘Premium’. (waterproof).

A bit of a ramble, but hopefully of relevance and help.

Good luck!
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Old 6th Feb 2014, 2:19 am   #9
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

Thank you David, that was a most informative and exceedingly useful post, that will serve me well and no doubt many others as time passes. In my opinion it warrants being made a 'sticky' as it is applicable to many items restored by members of this forum.

Unfortunately the cracks and gaps I have to fill are more voluminous than I could hope to handle with cyanoacrylate as a binder. I am in fact restoring a cedar door with full glass insert that served many years as a front door at a neighbour's property.

The full glass insert is etched with a maori motif which is quite unique and my wife just loved it, and when, after many many years, she saw it had been replaced she asked to buy it and was given it free. It had many coats of paint, inside and out and various areas have filler in old screw holes etc.

I have stripped it back to bare wood and, cut it down to internal door size, and it is now ready for clear-coat polyurethane, but for the various screw holes, cracks, open joints etc. Once finished it will be installed as her home office door, fortuitously lightening up a darkish corner of our entrance hall as well.

Cheer

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Old 6th Feb 2014, 5:29 pm   #10
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

Thanks for your comments Billy - glad you found the info of help.

Just a point about filling holes: It's often very tempting to sharpen a piece of wood of the same type to a point, smear it with glue, hammer it into the hole, cut it flush and sand it smooth. However, unless the wood is to be painted, such a repair will always stand out like a sore thumb, because it's end grain. The cellular structure of wood is rather like a bunch of straws, and end grain will therefore draw in stain or varnish through capillary attraction in a way that side grain won't. However, though it's always difficult to get filler to match exactly, at least filler won't suck in stain or varnish like a bunch of straws. For linear gaps at joints, a sliver of wood or veneer of the same type forced into the gap side grain on with glue tends to be less noticeable than filler of any type.

The door sounds a lucky find and well worth preserving - there's always a sense of satisfaction from re-claiming something that is destined to be junked!
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Old 8th Feb 2014, 3:06 am   #11
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

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Originally Posted by David G4EBT View Post
Just a point about filling holes: It's often very tempting to sharpen a piece of wood of the same type to a point, smear it with glue, hammer it into the hole, cut it flush and sand it smooth.
Mmmm.........Guilty as charged for small "borer" holes in furniture, I put PVA glue on a half-toothpick and tap it into the hole until it stops then shear it off at the surface using a sharp chisel, but our borer holes (roughly equivalent to your woodworm) are only 1-1.5mm in diameter and once plugged they are virtually invisible. However, for radio cabinets, following treatment with appropriate sprays I fill the holes with a matching filler. Infestations rarely cause structural dammage, though if a brace or other small block was of very soft wood, eventually that may be reduced to dust leaving the rest of the cabinet virtually untouched. The soft stuff acts a bit like a sacrificial lamb!

I finally found some Aliphatic PVA glue, two out of three major hardware chains had never heard of it and at the third I had to find it for myself because there were no staff in evidence, just cashiers. Resin is not mentioned on the label, but it has the characteristic light yellow colour mentioned on numerous websites, it dries clear and quite quickly, so I think I have the right stuff. A 500ml squeeze bottle cost the rough equivalent of 7 pounds in your currency.

I can now get back to the job in hand, with many thanks again for your assistance.

Cheers

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Old 8th Feb 2014, 9:55 am   #12
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

For making plugs to do side-grain filling, there are special bits which cut a plug out of scrap timber. Have a look at the Trend catalogue.

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Old 12th Feb 2014, 6:35 am   #13
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

I've search their catalogue for 'plug cutter' and anything else that sounded relevant, but drew a complete blank. A catalogue number would be helpful, or even better, a URL link direct to the item. We don't have Trend down-under so I've hit a brick wall.

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Old 12th Feb 2014, 9:26 am   #14
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

I saw them in a paper Trend catalogue years ago and don't have any numbers in my head, though I do have a couple of the cutters (somewhere!)

They're centreless, of course and need a solid pillar drill to use them. Just think of a tube with hacksaw teeth around the end, like a small version of a holesaw.

The biggest woodwork tools website is axminster, you might be able to find something there

http://www.axminster.co.uk

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Old 12th Feb 2014, 10:03 am   #15
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

Frankly, I can’t really think of any applications for plug cutters relating to radio cabinet repairs, other than perhaps to internal timber framework cabinet repairs of TVs grams and larger radios, so it's a bit off-topic, but as you’ve asked about them, maybe some explanation is appropriate. The first thing to say is that you must use plug cutters in a pillar drill at fairly low speed (ie 300RPM). They’re not intended to be used in hand held drills – manual or electric.

They’re usually used to make plugs to fill recessed housings for countersunk screws in timber. You drill a hole in the timber to recess the screw, (using a lip & spur bit, flatbit or forstner bit), then cut a plug (usually a tapered sided one) of the correct diameter and glue and tap it into the hole, then cut and sand it flush. It makes a neat repair and the grain can be orientated in the same direction as the wood to making the plug less obtrusive. The plug won’t be invisible (unless painted of course), but it will be far less obtrusive than the usual hand-fashioned end grain sharpened stick type of plug more commonly used. Ideally, the timber from which the plug is fashioned should be the same as the parent timber into which the plug is to be fitted.

This website shows what plug cutters look like, giving good illustrations of how they are used:

http://www.toolstoday.com/p-5344-8-p...ooden-box.aspx

Typically the sizes of the straight-sided ones are 6,10,13 & 16mm, and the tapered -sided ones 13,16,19 & 32mm. They’re widely available in the UK and quite cheap - typically about £12 GBP ($25 NZ) for a set of four tapered cutters and four straight cutters. EG:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&k...l_1tji18kili_b

Not perhaps the best quality, but adequate for the occasional use that most of us will put them to. There are tool suppliers in NZ that sell them, but they’re not as cheap as the ‘cheap and cheerful’ ones generally on offer in the UK. These for example are by Veritas -an expensive up-market brand favoured by cabinet makers for such things as planes and spokeshaves:

http://www.carbatec.co.nz/veritas-snug-plugs_c9020

These from Linbide in NZ are cheaper:

Plug cutters:

http://www.linbide.co.nz/product.php?p=735

Lip & Spur bits:

http://www.linbide.co.nz/product.php?p=432

Hope that helps.
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Old 12th Feb 2014, 10:46 am   #16
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

Quote:
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We don't have Trend down-under so I've hit a brick wall.
For slightly unusual stuff it might be worthwhile contacting E Hayes & Sons down here. They used to have a reputation for having almost anything in stock and never getting rid of obsolete stuff - I don't know how true it still is, but you'll certainly find stuff you won't get at Mitre 10 Mega or Bunnings.

If you find they have what you want I'd be happy to pop in, grab one and send it up
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Old 16th Mar 2014, 9:19 am   #17
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

Thanks for the offer arjoll, but fortunately I had found a set of cutters at Bunnings that were about right. One for a small plug was perfect for the job and the other one was 3mm over, so I used the drill press etc to cut two plugs, then lacking anything remotely resembling a lathe, I centre-drilled the oversize examples, put a 3/16 bolt through the middle, with locking washers etc, put the bolt in the chuck of my drill press then using an old Sandvik metal "sanding plate" I successfully turned it down to a perfect fit.

The grain doesn't quite match, but it turned out much better than I expected and my colour-matching filler is also better than I could have hoped. The residual holes in the middle of the bigger plugs are no problem because most of the big 'plugs area' on each side of the door will be covered by a matching wooden handle plate.

Anyway, I am satisfied with progress, and my wife is also happy with how it is looking, so all I have to do is secure the glass, give it three coats of clear marine lacquer and install it, then I can go collect my brownie points!

Cheers

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Old 4th Apr 2014, 11:07 am   #18
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

Well, the end game didn't quite work out as expected. Once filled and all surfaces sanded, I applied a clear epoxy lacquer and the cedar came up beautifully in a slightly darker colouring, but the filler took the road less often travelled. It lightened up and changed colour to khaki! Sigh..............

Fortunately Mrs T was delighted to have the door finished and hung, so she accepted the compromised result without comment, and I still got my brownie points!

Thanks to all for the very helpful advice.

Cheers

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Old 5th Apr 2014, 6:57 am   #19
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

Not sure if there is any read-across from dealing with wood block flooring, but this blog/business is interesting in that context;

http://woodfloor-renovations.blogspo...den-floor.html

No connections.
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Old 5th May 2014, 6:20 am   #20
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Default Re: Colour matching filler from wood dust and PVA?

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Fortunately Mrs T was delighted to have the door finished and hung, so she accepted the compromised result without comment, and I still got my brownie points!
End result below:
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