UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > General Vintage Technology > General Vintage Technology Discussions

Notices

General Vintage Technology Discussions For general discussions about vintage radio and other vintage electronics etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 11th Oct 2021, 1:03 pm   #1
DonaldStott
Octode
 
DonaldStott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Glasgow, UK.
Posts: 1,840
Smile Solid vs Stranded

Having completed a good number of vintage valve radio restorations I've always been intrigued as to when solid core vs stranded wire has been used?

There are some clear preferences i.e. solid core for the heater chain, but I struggle to see a pattern elsewhere?

I know someone will have the answers so just trying to fill this gap in my knowledge - thanks!
__________________
BVWS Member
DonaldStott is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2021, 3:22 pm   #2
Graham G3ZVT
Dekatron
 
Graham G3ZVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 18,675
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

An excellent question!

I like to use stranded PVC covered wire of a type that is thick enough not to be too flexible.
Why? Well the capillary action of the strands makes soldering easier and the joint more reliable, and somehow more forgiving.
It's probebly "wrong" in a set that originally used all solid, but there it is.
__________________
--
Graham.
G3ZVT
Graham G3ZVT is online now  
Old 11th Oct 2021, 4:36 pm   #3
ajgriff
Nonode
 
ajgriff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,583
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

Only guessing but cost might have been a factor back in the day. Also it's easier to achieve a neat appearance with solid core.

Alan
ajgriff is online now  
Old 11th Oct 2021, 4:39 pm   #4
Guest
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

I quite like solid for complicated point to point, it stays in place, I have a reel from Maplin that is thin enough to go through "normal" pcb holes. I use that often for Arduino projects. The only pattern is what "we" have in stock for home construction use whatever is most available in the junk draw. And solid core was used in 1960's TVs for the wrapped joints.
 
Old 11th Oct 2021, 4:51 pm   #5
G6Tanuki
Dekatron
 
G6Tanuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 13,951
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

I prefer stranded and use it to replace solid core... I like the glassfibre braided silicone insulated hi-temp stuff as used in cookers etc as it stands up to the heat of soldering well and doesn't melt when used as top cap wiring on power valves.
__________________
I'm the Operator of my Pocket Calculator. -Kraftwerk.
G6Tanuki is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2021, 10:24 pm   #6
joebog1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Mareeba, North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,704
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
I prefer stranded and use it to replace solid core... I like the glass'fibre braided silicone insulated hi-temp stuff as used in cookers etc as it stands up to the heat of soldering well and doesn't melt when used as top cap wiring on power valves.
In Australia the wire you speak of is white. On top of an audio amp it looks excellent and makes it "visible" clipped onto the topcaps. The 30 amp rated stuff also fits nicely through a 4mm hole fitted with a grommet. I don't know the insulation rating of this setup, but I have run it at 1200 volts without breakdown.

As it's nigh on impossible to buy single core now, all internal wiring is done with stranded wire. But even that is not easy to come by. Yes a few computer power supplies can furnish a variety of colours and at the same time lots of different gauges, both internal to the wire and the outside diameter. When the wiring is half a dozen different gauges it looks tacky and "knocked together". I have about a dozen lots of wire purchased from various sellers on the popular web sites, and that is a quagmire too. Rating as they do in gauge, but WHAT gauge I have gone to the trouble of using single core wire and covering it with heat shrink, but that takes ages.

Good discussion.

Joe
joebog1 is offline  
Old 11th Oct 2021, 10:59 pm   #7
broadgage
Nonode
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Somerset, UK.
Posts: 2,129
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

From a strictly electrical point of view, solid or stranded is fine in all common applications.

Solid core is easier to form neatly for plate wiring that is unsupported between connections.
Stranded is easier to handle when a number of wires are tied together with lacing cord, or have to pass through holes.

Stranded is better if vibration resistance is required, not just automotive but also motorised appliances.
If vibration is a serious problem, then standard soldered terminations are best avoided, crimps are better as the copper wire does not become hardened.
broadgage is offline  
Old 12th Oct 2021, 12:49 am   #8
Graham G3ZVT
Dekatron
 
Graham G3ZVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 18,675
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

Solid wires to hot resistors, droppers, and their soldered joints seem to go crystalline and brittle after time, stranded seems to fare better, as the connection isn't reliant on a single strand (obv).
__________________
--
Graham.
G3ZVT
Graham G3ZVT is online now  
Old 12th Oct 2021, 2:03 pm   #9
QQVO6/40
Hexode
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 316
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

G'day everyone.

Interesting topic.
I tend to use stranded wire for the vast majority of my stuff.

Note for Joe.
I get most of my stranded from a manufacturer in Sydney that have a branch in Newcastle.
Bambach Wires and Cables.
I hope I am not breaking any forum rules with this info. Mods please do as you will if I am being naughty.
I have no connection with this company other than being a very happy customer.
They have a product of many colours from 0.5mm on up. Called "Safex". It I think has XLPE (cross linked poly ethylene) insulation.
Yes the colours can be a bit wild but for the most part it is under the chassis so hidden. If visible I cover it with a bit of cotton braid.
One thing I like about it, The insulation does not run away when you tin it. The strands also accept tinning very easily.
Ok, enough of me plugging their product.
Joe. I agree with you that this "gauge" caper is ridiculous.
Which gauge??
I have seen it written that if a standard is not quoted, it is assumed to be AWG.
American Wire Gauge (AWG), Standard Wire Gauge (SWG), British Standard Wire Gauge (BSWG), Brown and Sharpe Wire Gauge (B&S)
Then of course buying it off the net who knows what you will get.
For small solid wire, the sort used for plug in prototyping boards I use a bit of internal telephone cable cut up. I have heaps of it. I used to do telephone and exchange maintenance stuff.
I agree that for higher temp wiring it should be stranded wire as tinned single strand does fracture more easily. Although I have had experience with stranded tinned copper wire being a pain.

Enough of my chatter.
Cheers.
Robert, VK2BNM
QQVO6/40 is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2021, 12:23 am   #10
Ted Kendall
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 3,657
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

If only Armstrong had used stranded in the 600 series - the solid core wire is prone to falling off and is the devil to solder. Stranded salvaged from computer supplies usually turns out to be steel...
Ted Kendall is online now  
Old 13th Oct 2021, 7:22 am   #11
joebog1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Mareeba, North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,704
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

I know all the specified gauges Robert. I have spent many years winding transformers.
Bambach also supply winding wire in hundreds of different styles and insulation type. At least they did, I haven't ordered any in years, and am still "living" on the left over reels I have.
The Asian gauges are something else!! I can measure the gauges with a micrometer, but what I measure is anything but what my wire tables say. Hence my comment.
To Ted, I have yet to see steel cables in a computer power supply, all that I have chopped up have been copper, both tinned and copper, I hesitated to say pure copper, because I don't know what's in it. A few quick tests with my box of salvaged computer wire proves it not magnetic.

What happened to good old fashioned 10/010 insulated ( stranded ) hook-up wire? About 30 colours and various lengths.

Joe
joebog1 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2021, 10:14 am   #12
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,526
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

10/010 10 strands 10 thou dia?

16/0.2 16 strands 0.2mm dia is almost an exact match for CSA around 0.5 sq mm.
__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O
Herald1360 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2021, 4:25 pm   #13
David Simpson
Nonode
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Aberdeen, UK.
Posts: 2,838
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

The use of Solid wire in radios stretches back(if you'll excuse the pun) to the early 1920's & the construction of those first TRF's. Many were in kit form & all components had plated terminals for ease of construction by the layman. Bare, or tinned or lacquered hard-drawn copper wire was supplied to the eager constructor. The cross sectional area was often in the 0.5mm sq. to 1.0mm sq, metric-wise - - far far bigger than that required for the wee handful of mA flowing around the radio. Oversize insulated solid & stranded wiring continued to be used well into the 1930's, more by tradition than adherance to volts drop/m tabulations. WW2 and the requirements for lightweight aircraft equipment, and man-packs for the troops, soon heralded much lighter & flexible wiring.
The uninitiated might argue that 1.0mm to 1.5mm sizes should be used for valve heaters, just like domestic flex sizes for mains lighting & household appliances. But wattage-wise, a 4V valve drawing 1A through the heaters is only 4W. A household appliance drawing 1A from 240V is 240W. Thats where V drop/m tables in the IET Regs comes in.
For traditionalists - modern thin pvc insulated flex can be sleeved by the outer cotton covering of modern boot & shoe laces - which amazingly has identical patterning to the cotton sleeving used back in the late 20's, & the 30's & 40's.
Obviously, for the circuitry, and particulary for the heaters, for huge thumpers like an STC 4212D, or PX25's, etc. - in huge amps, or military, or commercial equipment - larger c/s/a of wiring is needed compared to old domestic TRF's & S/hets, etc.


Regards, David
David Simpson is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2021, 4:46 pm   #14
Graham G3ZVT
Dekatron
 
Graham G3ZVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 18,675
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

ISWYM David!
(illustrative purposes only)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/273795311...0AAOSweaFcdWMR

That's a good tip that I must try soon.
__________________
--
Graham.
G3ZVT
Graham G3ZVT is online now  
Old 14th Oct 2021, 5:34 pm   #15
Guest
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

Quote:
But wattage-wise, a 4V valve drawing 1A through the heaters is only 4W.
Indeed, but even a small voltage drop at 4V is significant, not so at 240V. Thick wires for heaters are needed to keep the volts right, thick wires at mains are needed to stop the wire getting hot. The wire itself doesn't care about the voltage.
 
Old 14th Oct 2021, 7:08 pm   #16
G6Tanuki
Dekatron
 
G6Tanuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 13,951
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

The "glass fibre insulated" HV-rated wire here is available in a range of colors - black, green, brown, blue, yellow, red, orange, white, purple.

Some people say it's hard to neatly trim the glass insulation back at the point where it's needed to be bared to solder to a tag; yes, sometimes it can look a bit 'furry' - but my solution here is to use a pink hi-temp-rubber "Hellerman sleeve" which can - after soldering the wire to a valve-base pin or similar - be slid forward to cover both the soldered joint itself and any 'furry whiskers' on the glass-insulated cable.
__________________
I'm the Operator of my Pocket Calculator. -Kraftwerk.

Last edited by G6Tanuki; 14th Oct 2021 at 7:25 pm.
G6Tanuki is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2021, 10:47 pm   #17
joebog1
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Mareeba, North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,704
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

It was once here too G6, but today its been replaced by tiny thin silicone insulated stuff, at least in stoves. When I look at the gauge of the actual conductor I often wonder if it's the heating element!!! , I fitted a new stove top and oven for a friend and the new oven (3600 watts ) had wire about 1 mm in conductor diameter, with tacky brass 6.3mm spade terminals at both the thermostat end, AND the element end.

To strip the white fibreglass cable I use a brand new GEM type razor blade ( the type with a steel back fitted ) and roll it along the bench. It doesn't take long to work out the correct "tension" so that the conductors are not damaged.

Joe
joebog1 is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2021, 5:19 am   #18
Radio1950
Hexode
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Buderim, Queensland, Australia.
Posts: 428
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

Quote:
Originally Posted by joebog1 View Post

What happened to good old fashioned 10/010 insulated ( stranded ) hook-up wire? About 30 colours and various lengths.

Joe
Here you go Joe, some 10x0.1 mm, and I'm keeping it.
I don't think it is made now.
The RS stuff in the photo is very good, size just right, good tinning, insulation strips easily and doesn't creep back with soldering. Wish I had more.

I use a lot of Jaycar/Altronics 13x0.12 mm now, and the larger 24x0.2 mm if I need to wind up a welder secondary, well, ... sort of.
Silicone 13x0.12mm stuff for hot components.
For thin stranded in grey, white, and black, I use wire pulled from flat IDC cable at 7x0.12mm, and for very thin single core, some old Teflon covered 0.5 mm wire wrap stuff.
But it is a blubber to strip, and I have "misplaced" my strip tool.

I still have a fair bit of 14 and 23x0.0076, but that's in "bananas".
If anyone can decipher that last comment, "he" is a really talented machinist, and "she" is a talented video maker!

For the reverse antipodeans, including venerable Angleseyans, "RS" is an unfortunate abbreviation in "Australian Speak" for a quality company.
.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Hookup wire   DSC08548.jpg
Views:	72
Size:	95.5 KB
ID:	243441  
Radio1950 is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2021, 10:46 am   #19
David Simpson
Nonode
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Aberdeen, UK.
Posts: 2,838
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

As merlinmaxwell says, one needs to keep heater or filament voltages spot-on. Therefore, as well as careful secondary LV winding design in many valve radios, manufacturers very often used the chassis as a return path. Plus sometimes used a loop method between the "hi" side of the heater circuitry to ensure a steady correct voltage is maintained.
On a re-build or homebrew projects I tend to stick to the old colour code convention & use Brown PVC insulated flex, and use 0.7mm size - just because I was given a big roll of it years ago. On very old TRF's, for general wiring, I often use 0.5mm covered with the "shoe-lace" method. Fraying at the ends is prevented by use of "whipping" the ends with a fine but strong cotton thread(sometimes used for looming & lacing) with a dab of super glue over the whipped end. The inner conductor end is always "tinned".
Hellerman sleeves, eh ! I miss the evocative smell of "Hellerene" lubricant, but a tiny dab of silicone grease would do. Obviously, if vintage authenticity is not a concern, then modern "Heat Shrink Sleeving" is just the ticket.

Regards, David
David Simpson is offline  
Old 15th Oct 2021, 11:53 am   #20
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,526
Default Re: Solid vs Stranded

Continuing the 10/010 theme..... this is still a standard US 20AWG stranding option but called 10/30 (10 strands/30AWG).

Eg: https://www.alphawire.com/Products/w...ding=10/30&e=0
__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O
Herald1360 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 7:14 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.