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Old 6th Dec 2020, 6:31 pm   #41
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: The future of vintage electronics ?

For people to be interested, they need a 'hook.' This could be nostalgia, the nature of the item itself, what it does or did, or what it stood for. We can't make people nostalgic for things they never knew in the past, nor can we impose our values on them. But we can show and tell them about technologies and items that they haven't encountered before and let them see if they like them.

It's amazing how interest can be sparked with unlikely items. Very few people know much about player pianos or would profess an interest, but when they are shown how to operate one, almost everyone enjoys playing it. Prizing kids away from a player piano when their parents want to go home can be a challenge. To quote one pre-teen enthusiast: 'It's playing a MIDI file but on paper... you could edit it with a pair of scissors." To him it was a delightful validation of what he envisaged was going on inside a digital device.

Old tech excels at this because it is usually more visual and tangible. OK, radio and TV and electronics in general require a bit more abstraction of thought as you can't see the electrons flying about. But you can tune and hear heterodyne whistles and whatever, in a way that you can't with DAB or a synthesized FM tuner, and get a feel for what is going on.

It is our job as the incumbent experts to make the connection between the fun old tech and the new fertile minds. It's no good meeting up and nattering amongst ourselves about what is going to happen blah blah. As someone put it very effectively in a thread a few years ago, it's easy for people on the outside to see vintage radio (it might have been amateur radio) as a bunch of guys hunched over a table in the corner looking at a metal box. This is where museums sometimes do a much better job than enthusiasts, because their remit is (or should be) to reach out and engage audiences and offer them an enlightening experience.

I can get pretty much anybody of any age or any walk of life interested in electrostatic tone generators. Sometimes I only need to hand them parts of a dismantled generator and ask what they make of it. Most people get it with a bit of prompting, then they are full of questions; 'What does this sound like? Can we play it? Why does that wave sound like a clarinet?' My dad could do the same with projectors - 'What if we put the film in backwards or upside down?' Provided you don't expect them to be interested for the same reasons you yourself are interested, I guarantee you can do the same with your radio collection. One of your inductees might be the key to future of the collection and part of the future of the whole hobby.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 6:55 pm   #42
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Default Re: The future of vintage electronics ?

I think it was Yogi Berra who remarked on the difficulty of making predictions, especially about the future. So I'm quietly optimistic that there will be enough interest in the bits and pieces we harbour to keep many of them around for a long time yet, but the forms such interest may take are a much harder call. Our motivations are a very mixed bag already: in contrast with many members here I'm a reluctant solver of problems, who is only likely to be driven to repair anything if either it's needed for regular use or I'm especially curious as to how it will perform when working. Design history and aesthetics both interest me and it bothers me not at all if there are thirty non-working radios in the room so long as there's at least one that is working and is capable of receiving well whatever I'm minded to listen to, which doesn't vary much. The rest, for the time being, are furniture for the eye to rest on and the mind to contemplate. Items that it isn't practical to use even if they're in a functional state may, some of them, have a future of that kind. There are plenty of enthusiastic bottle collectors, say, who would rarely if ever consider using any of the bottles they collect.

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Old 6th Dec 2020, 8:42 pm   #43
dave walsh
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Default Re: The future of vintage electronics ?

Two particularly rather profound posts, queuing up together!

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Old 6th Dec 2020, 10:08 pm   #44
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Default Re: The future of vintage electronics ?

People collect all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. This forum is mainly concerned with making old electronic items work again, but that isn't the only motivation for collecting things. Some people collect things which can't actually be used again, such as postage stamps, so the lack of usefulness of an item doesn't stop it becoming collectable.

Nostalgia certainly does motivate some collectors. As time moves on, people get older and start collecting things from their youth. That's why some relatively modern items such as 1970s colour TVs are now becoming collectable. But it's not just nostalgia. For example pre-war TVs are highly sought-after and valuable, yet there can't be many people still alive who had one when they were young. Likewise, some young people are becoming interested in vinyl records and players, even though they've never experienced physical music before. To them it's a novelty. The bottom line seems to be that if something is interesting enough, it can become collectable.

It's also important to remember that collectable does not automatically mean valuable. Value depends on supply and demand. If lots of collectors are chasing after a small number of items, value will be high. Conversely, if there are lots of items to go round, value will be low. Even if your item is super-rare but no-one else wants it, it's not valuable in financial terms (though it could still be of historical significance.) Values can go up or down over time. It's difficult to predict what will become valuable and when the value will peak.

Just because modern electronics are difficult to repair doesn't mean they won't become collectable or even valuable in the future. Having said that, I think it will be a long time before today's electronics start to go up in value, simply because there's so much of it around. The lack of spare parts and increasing complexity makes repair a challenge, but that's just what some people enjoy! Going back to TonyDuell and his example of computers that use unobtainable custom chips, someone solved that problem by designing a replacement part using a modern component. See here: https://vdrivezx.com/vla82/
A new replacement for the ULA custom chip used in the Sinclair ZX Spectrum computer. Now you can revive a dead Sinclair or even build a new replica one from scratch! Who would have thought it possible?

To conclude, I'm sure that collecting and even repairing electronics will have a future. There may be less people interested, and things may become less valuable as a result, but it won't stop altogether.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 11:01 pm   #45
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Originally Posted by hamid_1 View Post
Just because modern electronics are difficult to repair doesn't mean they won't become collectable or even valuable in the future.
Fortunately reliability for some time has been potentially amazingly good (though sometimes execrable). One of the radios in daily use here, almost 40 years old, has a ridiculous component count that includes 21 FETs, 174 other transistors and 41 ICs. Hasn't skipped a beat since I've owned it, I doubt it did beforehand, and were a few components to begin to fail I rather expect it would be in for a long rest, as my modest repair skills honed not very sharply at all 20 to 40 years ago on basic domestic valve receivers and transistor portables up to and including Hacker would quail at the prospect of interfering with it. Then, I wouldn't lay odds against its full functionality outlasting both its present owner and AM/FM broadcasting.

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Old 6th Dec 2020, 11:07 pm   #46
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Default Re: The future of vintage electronics ?

And I am sure there will be enough interested people of the following generations to keep the valves glowing.
An example: One of my sons came from school telling us he was to prepare and hold a presentation on "The Berlin Wall". Some days later he came up with the idea to play some audio quotes by famous politicians during his presentation. And for that job he would prefer to use one of my old valve Radios of the '50s era. No problem, I told him, select one you like!
At school, we dimmed the lights at the right moment. The reaction of the audience listening to J.F.Kennedy speaking "Ich bin ein Berliner" through a Graetz Medodia 3D was more than overwhelming! That presentation raised interest of several boys in old radios, and in the meanwhile my son is collecting, too.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 11:42 pm   #47
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There has always been a bulge in interest in the technology that was available when people were in their teens and 20s. In the 70s and 80s this was valve tech from the 20s and 30s, and in the 90s and 00s it was valve tech the 50s and 60s. Nowadays people seem to be interested in transistor tech from the 60s and 70s.
My "teens and 20s" spans from 1985 to 2001, so I guess that sort-of explains my collection of vintage computers spanning from slightly before then to the tail end of the era.

The problem is always the dip in value - the latest tech becomes old junk, gets dumped, then increases in value. Case in point - I gave away five 5160 PC/XTs and a high end Compaq Deskpro 386/33L in the late 90s, and in the mid 90s gutten a 5070 PC/AT with PGC and put in a cheap 486 motherboard. It was all "old junk" at the time. If I'd kept it that batch of stuff would have been worth over $1k, and I shudder to think what an original 5170 with PGC and matching monitor would be worth now.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 1:20 am   #48
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arjoll - Don't feel bad about getting rid of computers that have since gone up in value. You're not the only one who's done this. 20 years ago I gave away a Commodore Amiga 1000 computer and sold an early Apple Macintosh Plus with external hard drive for £8. They'd be worth about £500 or NZ$1000 today.

It's a kind of paradox that these things only become rare and valuable once a lot of people have disposed of them, but by disposing of the item, the owner loses the item and its value. Your loss has contributed to someone else's gain.

It can work both ways, if you're lucky enough to buy during the 'cheap junk' phase of an item's lifecycle. In the past, I've bought a Commodore Amiga 1200 for £25 and a Sinclair ZX80 for £10. I still have them - they'd probably cost about £400 to buy now. So I lost some and won some. To be honest, I don't concern myself too much with the financial value of my 'junk', it's more about the enjoyment I get from it. For me, part of the fun is being able to get hold of things for a fraction of their original price, sometimes even free, and sometimes non-working. The rest of the fun comes from studying, repairing if necessary then using the item where possible.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 10:46 am   #49
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. . . .
It probably helps that I have inherited a lot of make do and mend genes. Yesterday saw me using some woodwork tools that belonged to my father. They will date back to the 1930s. It's nice to think they still have a life in my hands.
I have a wood block plane that dates back to the 1780's apparently! Good tools never die (soldering irons excepted).
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 10:54 am   #50
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The dividing line between collecting and hoarding [post 34*] certainly can get very thin for a lot of us [don't we know it]. This interesting thread seems to have two sorts of responders. One takes it to mean the overall social and practical future of vintage technology, in the broader context of society. The other seems to focus on what will be the technical nature of any technology that becomes vintage in the future? Of course the two are not incompatible by any means!

Dave W
I'm collecting - but my wife calls it hoarding old junk Wish I could live for a few hundred years - be interesting to see if the 430 year old valve radios are still collected. One of my loves is book collecting I have quite a few from the 1700's, several from the 1600's, one from 1538 and a single page from a 1490 book. So it is possible.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 11:14 am   #51
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Also be aware collecting can seize on strange things - back in the 1970's I used to laugh when people told me a Fender Stratocaster guitar from the 1960's would be 'collectible' and valuable one day - those were workday guitars mass made and with little evident skill - unlike say a Gibson arch top instrument such as a super 400 with a hand carved top. Nowadays while you will pay $10,000 for a Gibson super 400, a 63 strat will set you back the best part of $15-20,000 or more. So there's hope for collectors of PO relays, or 19th cent shock machines etc. yet.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 12:25 pm   #52
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Default Re: The future of vintage electronics ?

I remember at Golbourne on 11/11/2018 we all paused to listen to the two minute silence announcement on a valve radio which gave it a greater prominence.

I've had to dispose of some old computers which are probably worth more today but at the time were around the junk level. At least I got £25 for a Commodore 128 with a lot of games & accessories when my parents though I would be lucky to get £5 for it.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 12:37 pm   #53
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I remember at Golbourne on 11/11/2018 we all paused to listen to the two minute silence announcement on a valve radio which gave it a greater prominence.

I've had to dispose of some old computers which are probably worth more today but at the time were around the junk level. At least I got £25 for a Commodore 128 with a lot of games & accessories when my parents though I would be lucky to get £5 for it.
Wow someone got a bargain , the 128 goes for around £150 upwards alone !
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 2:26 pm   #54
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I think there will always be some oddballs who collect 'strange' stuff - my prediction for future collectibility is the Microsoft Zune [their failed attempt at marketing an iPod] and any phone that uses Microsoft's phone-operating-system [again a loser in the Apple-vs-Android race].

A BSB Squarial and its associated decoder-box would also be a possible 'keeper' even though they're both totally useless.

Same goes for HD-DVD.

Perhaps someone should open a "Museum of Failed Technologies" ??

My underlying concern for regularly-used-vintage-gear is the spare-parts situation: Tape-heads wear out, as do the drums on VCRs. Some PA-valves for ham-radio transceivers/linear-amps are becoming unobtainable, forcing conversion to use more-freely-available valves - which are not always successful (the original designers having made assumptions about inter-electrode capacitance, some such transmitters won't neutralise reliably unless you use a specific _brand_ of PA valves!).

Semiconductors are a problem too: while there's some degree of substitutability we now have the whole problem of forgeries. Tread very carefully when trying to source replacement Motorola "MRF"-series HF power transistors or the Mitsubishi 'block' PA-modules used in 1970s-era VHF transceivers.

And finally, some parts are just extinct because they had underlying defects from the start: Mazda's early-50s TV-tubes being an example - they only lasted a few years at best. Even if your 'attic-find' vintage-TV has a tube that's OK now, if you were to spend 6 hours a day watching it, the tube soon wouldn't be too healthy.

There's a lot to be said for keeping vintage-gear in regular use rather than sitting on a shelf - but sometimes a failure can render a rebuild uneconomic or impossible so 'breaking' the failed thing rather than trying a repair becomes economically sensible if it helps keep other kit in service. Much though some of us point-and-giggle at the goings-on at the wackier end of the 'vintage hi-fi/audiophool' market, at least there's sufficient interest - and people prepared to pay - that parts-remanufacture is economic; you won't get that happening with 1950s Mazda CRTs!
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 3:15 pm   #55
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I think i must fall into the "oddball catagory" because i collect failed technology or undesirables.
Your list covers just some of my collections including HD-DVD , BSB Squariel stuff , Prestel related hardware, CED Laserdisc hardware and discs, Rabbit phones ,i do have a couple of windows phones too although i dont actively collect them, rare photographic formats ,analogue satellite stuff , rare videogame equipment the list goes on and on.
Ive already had problems getting CED stuff repaired and the needles which the system uses are pretty much unobtainable now , so the only way really to get replacements is to cannibalise old machines.

Maybe one day if i win the lottery i will open said museum! but as you say i also worry about spares and indeed technology which has no modern use and thats why i save everything i can to excess.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 4:00 pm   #56
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Rabbit phones
At least these are still functional as cordless telephones.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 4:32 pm   #57
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Rabbit phones
At least these are still functional as cordless telephones.
I'm not certain that the frequencies they work on are still allocated to cordless-phone use though.

[this is another issue relating to the future of some vintage gear: administrative/regulatory changes can render stuff unusable overnight; the fate of some old analog wireless-microphones springs to mind]
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 4:39 pm   #58
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Maybe one day if i win the lottery i will open said museum !
But what if you don't win the lottery, what happens to your stuff when you are not storing/hoarding it ?
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 7:41 pm   #59
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I'm not certain that the frequencies [Rabbit 'phones] work on are still allocated to cordless-phone use though.
I believe an earlier thread established that their frequencies are now used for radio microphones.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 9:34 pm   #60
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Default Re: The future of vintage electronics ?

This is a little speculation about cultural cycles of revival and neglect. I've adapted it to collecting/ vintage technology from a very thoughtful Momus article about culture in general, here.

This is about how the present feels about particular parts of the culture of the past. Have a look at the diagram attached.

The present: Not difficult to define. The present is now. It's this year and last year and a couple of years before that. If you can look at a photo of some device and not think 'been a while since I used one of them/how chunky that looks', then that device probably is considered as in the present.
If you look at an old email or diary entry and find you were talking about that device in a way you'd now be talking about, say, the Smartphone - and/or catch yourself struggling to remember what the machine even was -- then that text was probably not written in what we're calling "the present". It was probably written in the next timezone on my diagram, and the most important one here, the anxious interval.

The anxious interval: The recent past. It's long enough ago to feel not-contemporary, but not long enough ago to feel utterly removed. It's at an uncomfortable distance, which is why I call it "anxious". Here we put technology we avoid, repress, sublimate, have selective amnesia about, stow away, throw out, deliberately forget. If there's a stock exchange of collectability or monetary value, then whatever's in this section is likely to be found offered on freecycle or ebay for pence. Things like 3G phones, mp3 players etc etc. That doesn't mean there's anything 'wrong' with such tech, just that we're currently asleep to its charms. That particular pixie field is lying fallow right now. When the trump sounds and its time comes again, that kit will return, stronger for the rest.

Let's keep working back.

The battlefront
: The battlefront is a terribly interesting micro-zone, but to talk about it we need to talk about the zone behind it too. The goldmine is the cultural era the present is currently reselling or collecting. I've put a picture of 8 bit computers and perhaps some 70s record players, because in general we're reviving the 80s and vinyl at the moment. The goldmine is a goldmine for people who have lots of stock from the requisite era, or people who are buying and repairing kit from that era. The smartest people in the present are remembering the goldmine and sifting through its waters like a crowd of panhandlers.

The battlefront is the area right at the edge of the goldmine -- the place where the acceptable and lucrative revival era meets a time which is currently repressed, neglected, and a-slumber. What's so interesting about the battlefront is that the process of reassessment is so visible here, and the revaluation is so daringly and consciously done. An elite of taste-leaders and taste-formers unafraid of ridicule are hard at work here, foraging for bargains, bringing an unacceptable era into fresh acceptability. I'm thinking the likes of techmoan videos, which recently have dealt with some 80s-90s tape machines and mini discs.

I'd say the battlefront is currently the early- to mid-90s. I've noticed people talking about cassette ghetto blasters/boomboxes and mini systems and some of the games consoles. Cassette sales seem to be doubling year on year, no idea if they've come close to what vinyl did a couple of years back though.

Before the battlefront, before the goldmine, there's the anxious echo. The anxious echo is simply an era that has been revived or exploited by a more recent era which has itself been forgotten and repressed. In the late 90s-early 00s, for instance, we saw an obsession with anything ' bakelite' This means that if we're forgetting the late 90s, we must also 'forget' the bakelite, which becomes an "anxious echo" of a time we wish to forget. It sometimes seems like the Dansette obsession my be headed here too, I suspect prices have fallen slightly.

Even further back, there's the historical past, which is vast, and contains many fainter echoes of the present's revived and reviled periods, all cluttered up as in a junk store or museum. Before the historical past (not shown on the chart) is oblivion. Oblivion is simply what we can't remember, because we've lost records of it. Or so few people had access to the technology which was not a mass market concept. Oblivion is very different from the anxious interval because it's not consciously forgotten. We never had to banish or repress oblivion because we never knew it in the first place.

Before anyone jumps on my tech choices, please may I in advance excuse any inaccuracies in my choices of examples! I am sure everyone will have a different perspective on what goes where!
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