The future of vintage electronics ?

[Buzby123]

A quick look through the members list shows that the majority of the members here are, to quote a phrase, "closer to their eighties than they are to the 80's", me included.

A post I made on here years ago had a reply that alluded to the fact that the ages of collectable devices are moving forwards. The 60's are the modern 40's.

I watched Fred Dibnah on the telly tonight, talking about traction engines. In the 60's they could be bought for less than £50, just a fraction more than their scrap value. Now they are only owned by wealthy people who exchange them for thousands, and nobody makes them anymore.

Is this is what our vintage electronics are going to turn into, playthings for the ultra-rich ?.

And which, if any, of our 'modern' electronics are going to be collectable in the 2070's ?.

Modern radios are computers with loudspeakers, not easily tested with a multimeter and scope. All modern tech ( except boutique ) is similar.

So have we passed the golden age of collectability ?. Has electronic tech advanced beyond the ability to maintain it ?

Cheers,

Buzby

[GrimJosef]

... or is the realisation dawning that we're going to have to stop dumping few-year-old stuff in landfill and, instead, repair the things we've made if we want to carry on sustaining this many people on this small a rock ?

I note that just today (oops, it's past midnight, so yesterday) we've been told that for the sake of the energy budget we'd better turn online videos off when we can and otherwise watch them in standard rather than ever-higher definition.

The recent upheavals seem to be opening people's eyes, particularly among the young, and if so then 2020 may have at least some sort of a silver lining.

Cheers,

GJ

[ben]

I've sometimes wondered about that too.
One thing that never seems to have become collectable has been old satellite receivers and set top boxes for cable and satellite. Perhaps the old Band III converters on 405, but even they are of limited general appeal.

My predictions for future collectables (VERY distant future!)

The 'first' models of any new technology seems to be sought after. Early IPods and mp3 players maybe.

Maybe early DVD players? I have the first DVD-R recorder, a huge heavy Philips beast. Had some slight fault though. Also a first generation Pioneer DVD player.

Late CRT Vestel/Beko TVs? The kind of thing that were practically given away with cornflakes but may get harder to find as so many got dumped.

First large screen LCD and Plasma TVs?

Those awful mid/late 90s midi systems with the CD changers and flashing VFD displays?

The Nokia 3310 seems to have become the Dansette of the mobile phone world too

[paulsherwin]

There has always been a bulge in interest in the technology that was available when people were in their teens and 20s. In the 70s and 80s this was valve tech from the 20s and 30s, and in the 90s and 00s it was valve tech the 50s and 60s. Nowadays people seem to be interested in transistor tech from the 60s and 70s.

I've no idea what the future holds, but those of us hoping to retire on the proceeds of our vintage radio collections are probably in for a disappointment.

[Richard_FM]

8-bit computers are becoming more popular thanks to retrogaming, and even 1980s-90s small screen CRT sets are often promoted as suitable monitors, with prices to match.

Just a few years ago both would have been car boot sale fodder.

[David Simpson]

Hello Buzby, glad to hear from another Fred Dibnah fan.
Well into my teens, back in the 60's, I remember that steam lorrys were still in use along the Dock Road in Liverpool. Owned by the gigantic Tate & Lyle Sugar factory. Fodens I think they were.
Right enough, the perception of what is "Vintage" is advancing in decades. When I first started to service RAF CT160's in '66/'67 they were SOTA, being under 10 years old. Nowadays I'm trying, along with a few others, to persuade folk to take up re-purposing of old test equipment. Anything to avoid the dreaded "skip".
Hopefully, the number of younger new entrants to the Forum will keep pace with those of advanced years who sadly leave us. Mind you, amateur radio-wise, I've observed that the number of ARS "silent-keys" who were keen vintage radio/electronics guys, are not being replaced by younger folk. Just look at pictures of VMARS gatherings of stalwarts.
If things get back to normal, post Covid vaccines next year, us old-uns should make the effort to encourage & even mentor younger blood in the vintage radio fraternity.

Regards, David

[trh01uk]

A post I made on here years ago had a reply that alluded to the fact that the ages of collectable devices are moving forwards. The 60's are the modern 40's.

And there's a very simple reason for that. People cannot collect things that are generally no longer available. And once you have collectors collecting things, those "things" - whatever they are - being a finite resource, will simply dry up. Eventually, all the readily available examples find their way into individual collections, plus a few museums, and then the market starts to shrivel and die. Prices shoot up, because of their "rarity value".

In reality most things that can be collected or have been collected are not rare at all. They are just not available to the ordinary bod who maybe new into the specific collecting scene. They are, as I said, now safely ensconced on collectors' shelves, and usually in the dark cupboards of museums. In most cases, they will never emerge again, because museums rarely part with anything (at least not to the general public), and most private collections end up in a skip, when the collector dies, and the family finally has a chance "to clear out all that junk".

In my own field (military electronics) this is clearly going on even over the 27 years I have been involved. When I started in 1993, military electronics back to the late WWII era was fairly widely available, and "new finds" were regularly appearing as sheds and attics were cleared.

You could easily find a good, complete WS19, for instance, in 1993, and you might pay £200 for it. Inflation since then would increase that price to around £410. But in reality, WS19s are now pushing pretty close to £1,000, and even more in a few cases. Likewise the next generation of equipment (Larkspur) has become also "hard to find", with prices similarly going through the roof.

At no point in my experience has pre-WWII military electronics been around on the market. Its so rare in fact, that collectors can only read about such things in books like Wireless for the Warrior. I've never seen most of the stuff - except in museums, who have the occasional example. That they have more in their cupboards is rumoured, but they claim to have no wish (or space) to display it.

So pre-WWII military radio has become "uncollectable" for most ordinary mortals. The exception might be, as you suggest, that someone with very deep pockets could offer absurd sums to "prise" such items (assuming they can be located at all) out of the very secretive collectors who hold such things.

Those who want to collect stuff are thus forced into areas, usually more recent (less vintage) items that are still out there on the market, for prices that bear some reasonable proportion to their personal financial situation.


Richard

[ThePillenwerfer]

I think a lot will depend if people of the future are happy to collect things that are useless. A wireless or telephone from the 1920s or '30s can still be used but a 1980s analogue mobile 'phone can't, and I doubt that 2G ones will be usable for much longer. Even if DAB is still around in fifty years, which seems very unlikely, it'll odds on have changed so much that today's sets won't work on it.

As other people have said, repair-ability is also going to be a factor. How many modern parts are going to fail through age like Hunt's Moldseals or AF11* transistors? The difference will be it being much harder to use contemporary replacements.

[GMB]

I see the death of vintage electronics "for using" rather than admiring on a shelf as starting in the 90's - for the simple reason that the parts with "timed life" are not generic so cannot easiliy be replaced. Maybe some iconic items will attract the odd hacker but otherwise there is no hope.

Modern electronics seems to stop working, not because it is broken, but because some shift in software standards means they no longer can read whatever they expect to read. I have 3 perfectly "working" TV digi-boxes that proves that!

But age profile is misleading because there is always a bias towards vintage enthusiasts being the older generation for several reasons. Already mentioned is looking back to what you used to have (you need to be old to do that). But also people who no longer have a family on-site that have both time and money to do it.

The reason people can still afford to collect WW2 stuff is because there was so much of it made and then sold off to the public. And it helps that valves are hermetically sealed so can last for centuries in storage.

[dave walsh]

I've been watching the Dibnah repeats [God bless 'im] and I met him once, not surprising as I've never quite left the Bury/Ramsbottom environs! It might be true that expectations of raisng a pension out of a collection may not materialise [Paul post 4* ] but it's always hard to predict All of us are getting older [it's not hard to forecast that and theoretically, there's no one left and no demand and little value in the goods. Well theories one thing as we know! Richard [post7*] made a good analysis of one relatively specialised area but the broader picture may look quite different to what we expect.

This enthusiasts Forum began and continues, I would say, with much the same ethos and character as Amateur Radio always had ie good guys engaged in eccentric and unfathomable activities focussed on sharing knowledge and experience but "Things have changed" to quote Dylan and the "Wonderboys" film. Everything always tended be done "on the cheap" from the post war period but there is great satisfaction in being able to work that way. Radios [like Steam Rollers] could be had for next to nothing at one point. They were out of favour [like Radiograms]. Who ever thought that they would fetch relatively astronomical prices [with the exception of the very few pre-war examples that were made and survived] yet the emergence of Retro/Up-cycling/Steam Punk crazes within the general public [who predicted that] has changed the overall price of even the most inferior example. Possibly not always for the better but I try to look on the bright side.

It's noticeable that once a technology is abandoned it always comes back but seemingly much quicker than before these days and maybe as much through fashion as a technical interest. The harsh truth is that every thing in a once prudent and low profile past time is now monetised [like everything else] and the "fan base" is much broader than us "strange" hobbyists. Another factor is that it's a much longer lived population generally with [relatively] more time available plus the speed of change is that much greater ["Life's a Jet Plane-it moves too fast" yes Dylan again!]. This has given us all the opportunity to see young people staring in wonder at the notion of telegrams/telephone boxes/one [shared] phone on the wall at college/thick black plates [78's] etc. Now that sort of thing does make you feel ancient!

There used to be threads expressing concern about the membership getting older and not being replaced. How to encourage younger people etc? Of course, with no interest or membership the future of vintage electronics might well be in doubt in respect of the Forum but I don't really see that happening. It might seem to be counterintuitive but I do wonder about the number of people who "join" but don't really ie NSA [never seen again]. Some [maybe just a few] don't even seem to recognise that it's a quasi-community not just another site on the Web to supply free info or valuations. Harsh again perhaps but a bit of a conundrum perhaps. I'm not sure of the current membership numbers and activity but I do wonder about the equation between the constant stream of requests and if that does generate new members in any way? Is it possible to say? That's relevant to the "vintage future" but may require a separate thread perhaps?

[I should make it clear, for the avoidance of doubt, that I am not referring, of course, to any one that joins with a clear and ongoing involvement or is time limited by circumstance eg following a bereavement].

Dave W

[MrBungle]

The future is designing products for recycling not repair. It’s impractical to repair most items realistically speaking past replacing parts entirely.

My house! It even has new stuff in it that will become vintage in about a week or so. Also the internet, one can look and see things from the past working even if they are no longer an artifact. In a while Star Trek's holodeck will be reality, then I can go and see 2LO broadcasting.

Physical stuff is lovely to see (museums are one of my favorite places to visit), the virus problem has shown me many other ways to "visit".

[electronicskip]

Originally Posted by Richard_FM

8-bit computers are becoming more popular thanks to retrogaming, and even 1980s-90s small screen CRT sets are often promoted as suitable monitors, with prices to match.

Just a few years ago both would have been car boot sale fodder.

Your absoulutely right!
Im a serious collector of Retro games, 8 bit/16bit computers , retro game consoles and peripherals accessories etc etc.

The stuff i was buying 10 years ago for maybe £10/15 now goes for 3/4 times that amount and consoles such as Vectrex / Vitrual boys jaguars have gone stratospheric, even broken ones now go for stupid money.

Ive got games carts which were bought for a few pounds back then which are now worth 2 or 3 hundred pounds a piece especially if boxed.

However i no longer buy the latest consoles or computers for the very reason of repairs and the sheer amount produced in a consoles lifetime compared to ones made 15/20 years ago.

Im very happy stripping apart an old Atari 2600 or a BBC B but recently my xbox360 suffered a faliure, the type of repair needed was beyond me and other so called specialists so the WEE bin was added too.

[Junk Box Nick]

I like vintage things that can actually be used for their purpose rather than just ornament, i.e. the classic car that can still be driven to the supermarket, radio set that can receive broadcast transmissions. Of course we are rapidly witnessing the demise of much worth listening to on AM radio but at least a pantry tx can keep our sets enjoyable in use and ‘alive’.

Old computers can still run on old operating software – they do here but not for any sentimental reason – of course when it fails, that's pretty much it.

But if it’s no longer useable it has to be remembered that a lot of the old tech that we tend to be interested in on here has a visual and thus ornamental appeal. Some of my (yet to be restored) 1930s woodies are a case in point. This cannot be said for many set top boxes, mobile phones or computers other than very iconic items like early Macs or iMacs or portable brick Motorola phones (I do wish I'd kept my 8500xx). My apple G4 Quicksilver might be worth keeping but many of the failed anonymous beige boxes have long gone to the electronics skip at the local tip. (Though anything that was salvageable was scavenged beforehand and, pleasingly, a few forum members have benefitted.)

As for the environment, helping out an organisation with a website, etc., through these difficult times, they took great pride in saying that doing so much stuff via the internet was wonderful for the environment, with people not travelling to the building and that paper notice sheets, etc., had now been replaced replaced by “environmentally friendly” PDFs. I haven't done a study in their case but I couldn't help remarking that I had read (though I stand to be corrected on this) that at pre-CV-19 levels, the environmental impact of of operating all the servers that were running the internet, etc., was now greater than that of the airline industry. Of course, whilst everyone can see a car or plane go by or a photocopier working, few have ever been inside a building full of servers. When it’s out of sight it’s out of mind.

[TonyDuell]

I think one issue is that for the stuff we currently class as vintage (analogue radios/TVs, truely old computers, etc) the individual components were quite simple and understandable. Sure there may be odd or custom parts, but it's generally not to hard to either repair the component (e.g. rewind a transformer) or create a workaround.

That's not true of a product with a custom mask-programmed microcontroller in the middle of it. You virtually have to re-do the entire design process of said product to make a function equivalent. Needless to say it's not generally practical to do that.

Incidentally, I feel that 'old computers' started to lose interest/repairability when the processor became a single chip. And got even less interesting when ULAs/custom gate arrays appeared in them. The older machines are certainly repairable.

[G6Tanuki]

I guess things move on: a lot of stuff like old TVs/VCRs, first-generation analog cellphones (and their VHF BT carphone-predecessors) have the basic problem that they are either entirely non-functional or can only function in a limited way by hooking them up to modern signal-sources/infrastructure - which kinda reduces their attractiveness.

Same goes for AM ham-radio gear; that world went SSB in the 50s/60s and you won't have much success earning your DXCC if you're using a 19-set.

Personally, I want my vintage/classic radios to be _usable_, and to perform as well if not better than they did when first made. Yes I've got a cluster of late-1960s Pye Westminsters but they're crystalled up on 2M, have 12.5KHz-filters and PIC-based CTCSS-tone encoders fitted so they still work fine through the local (and not-so-local) repeaters. My AR88 works nicely (and I'm thinking of fitting a 1960s-style product-detector - heresy! - the better to receive SSB).

Thought: is fitting an 'upgrade' like that - which is itself a 50-year-old 'vintage' modification - to a 70-year-old radio wrong? Is it any more-wrong than a similar period-mod such as a BIII converter added to a BI TV?

Equally, I have no issues with the cannibalisation/breaking of poorer-condition examples of a particular breed if it yields parts to keep better-condition examples in-service. Same goes for fitting modern parts in place of known-problematic older ones: I want my radios to be reliable!

I see the future of 'vintage electronics' in keeping the best of them working, rather than seeing them become museum-pieces. OK, that's a problem for the stuff-that-can-just-no-longer-work.

[greenstar]

I would second TonyDuell -There is an interest in technology with discrete components. I have no idea how much. That implies vintage but not necessarily. Looking at Youtube a lot of people enjoy making things, from telegraph sounders to crystal sets. A lot of them are not old themselves. It gives a sense of empowerment and deeper understanding to see how something works and put it together from bits. I think some people will always want to understand and build from first principles. Whether this means they will want to collect old radios and telly's I do not know, but there will be an appeal from this point of view - you can see and engage with the works.

[G6Tanuki]

I think there's also an age/wealth-effect amongst those of us interested in vintage electronics, just as there is in the car/bike world. Young people don't have the disposable-income to let them spend £1000+ on a vintage hi-fi setup, and old bulky/heavy CRT tellies don't fit well in today's small flats/renting/regularly-moving model of residence.

Older people - particularly those over 50 - are more-settled and have more disposable income - so we can indulge our hobbies more easily. Interesting to think of what will be the 'future vintage collectables' though - there's already a well-developed community of vintage game/console collecters/players and the same applies to synthesizers/sequencers from the 80s and 90s music-scene - do you have a Casio VL-Tone in the loft? Or any of the 80s stuff by Korg? It's much sought-after by retro-musicians trying to recreate the band they were in as a student in the 80s.

For people to keep, or want to acquire/re-acquire old stuff - specially to actually use it - it has to have value to them. I remember a cartoon depicting the day-room of a future elderly-care-home, where residents were arguing vigorously over whether they should have the PS5 or the XBOX-1 connected up to the TV for today's gaming-session. Personally, I don't see that as too far-fetched.

[avocollector]

I would have said when smd became common that 'that's it folks' - after all who could repair them?? But you tube proves me wrong!! As for the urge to collect - well mine came from all the glorious test gear I wanted back when I was 14 from reading electronics mags but could not afford. About 15 years ago lots of it appeared for sale for very little - Avos etc and I had funds so could indulge merrily. I suspect a lot of future collecting will still come from that - another cognate field would be guitars. At the age of 11 I wanted a Gibson made one but they were what were astronomical prices back then 100+ pounds UK whereas a nice German one could be 30 pounds or so. When you get old enough and have the money, you can indulge those youthfull desires (I now have 14 Gibsons). So as well as the financial attraction I think the personal one will still drive the radio/electronics collecting.

Then there is the professional side - lots of older radio collectors got their start in WW2 doing radio courses/repairing stuff for the forces and kept the interest going as a hobby/nice little earner repairing radios etc.. Just as lots of modern computer collectors were involved in the industry. So I think overall there will still be collectors and gear to collect in future.

[Tim]

Is this is what our vintage electronics are going to turn into, playthings for the ultra-rich ?.

Only after I have got rid of or sold my stuff for peanuts.