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Old 20th Oct 2021, 7:06 pm   #1
djsbriscoe
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Default Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

I've just bought a Faulty HP8564E (possible faulty attenuator/s) and a spare HP8563E (display does not work) off that auctions site. I bought the second one after finding out that they both share the same internal modules (I don't know how they differ apart from bandwidth). The logic being that I should at least end up with one unit that is fully functional. I'm wondering now if I will live to regret my £760 splurge (£630 for the first and £130 for the second one).
I've read a couple of threads on this forum, but maybe should have read the posts BEFORE I bought the units.
I've joined the HP/Agilent/Keysight test equipment group.io user group and bought the artek manual, so hopefully I've got a fighting chance of ending up with something useful. What are your thoughts?
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Old 20th Oct 2021, 7:40 pm   #2
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

You like the high frequency stuff. Any reason for that?
Wondering what is your plan for the end result..

Last edited by Jon_G4MDC; 20th Oct 2021 at 7:40 pm. Reason: Sp!
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Old 20th Oct 2021, 8:22 pm   #3
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

The displays on these are usually fairly easy to sort out if you are familiar with small portable TV sets its a CRT monitor usually from either Panasonic or Omnivision.

You may not find all the parts interchangeable and you may also upset the calibration. For accuracy you want to do what you can to keep the many calibration constants which are stored in memory re calibration from scratch is not a task you want to do.

On the model with no working monitor you should be able to attach a small TV with composite input and see the screen display and then get it to read back the calibration data. I think on both these models the calibration data is maintained by a 10yr life battery which may well be expired but still working just!
Good luck
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Old 20th Oct 2021, 8:27 pm   #4
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

The real reason is I like the challenge of trying to fix stuff. And I'm hoping it will help with alignment and servicing some receivers I have. That and the urge to putting in cheeky offers for stuff, not expecting the offers to be accepted and then wondering if I've done the right thing. The frequency range of these things is way higher than I will probably EVER use. But why not, I thought. We will see I suppose when they arrive next week and I have to find the room for them.
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Old 20th Oct 2021, 8:32 pm   #5
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriswood1900 View Post
The displays on these are usually fairly easy to sort out if you are familiar with small portable TV sets its a CRT monitor usually from either Panasonic or Omnivision.

You may not find all the parts interchangeable and you may also upset the calibration. For accuracy you want to do what you can to keep the many calibration constants which are stored in memory re calibration from scratch is not a task you want to do.

On the model with no working monitor you should be able to attach a small TV with composite input and see the screen display and then get it to read back the calibration data. I think on both these models the calibration data is maintained by a 10yr life battery which may well be expired but still working just!
Good luck
Is there any way of to store the calibration data off the instrument? Do I just write it down on paper and then copy it in somehow? Can this data be transferred electronically?
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Old 20th Oct 2021, 8:43 pm   #6
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

I've a lot of experience using the 856xE range at work although I've not used the 40GHz version. I've got the 26GHz 8563EC model on my bench at work at the moment. I've actually got two, the other one has a sweep/span problem. It shows various error codes in the lower right of the LCD display when it tries to run.

The CRT versions at work are starting to look a bit tired and many of them have deaf membrane buttons on the front panel. This can be quite annoying. Even the EC version I'm currently using has started to have this problem.

The RF performance of these analysers is really good and they have low phase noise thanks to a YIG LO. I much prefer the older CRT version to the LCD EC version. The LCD screen is already looking small, dated and basic compared to the modern budget offerings from Siglent and Rigol.

I would advise you buy a decent DC block for the front panel N connector once you get one of them running.
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Old 20th Oct 2021, 8:52 pm   #7
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

I think the battery backed RAM doesn't hold much in the way of critical data. It's probably just there for screen captures and trace storing. It might also hold saved state data but that isn't usually important.

The factory cal corrections for the various RF sections ought to be in EE memory and I don't think this relies on a battery to keep it stored safely. However, I can't be certain about this.
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Old 20th Oct 2021, 11:26 pm   #8
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djsbriscoe View Post
The real reason is I like the challenge of trying to fix stuff. And I'm hoping it will help with alignment and servicing some receivers I have. That and the urge to putting in cheeky offers for stuff, not expecting the offers to be accepted and then wondering if I've done the right thing. The frequency range of these things is way higher than I will probably EVER use. But why not, I thought. We will see I suppose when they arrive next week and I have to find the room for them.


You'll do.

Go for it.

Sincerely,
Guy
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Old 20th Oct 2021, 11:48 pm   #9
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

I can probably still find a CRT version of the HP8563E at work if you want me to take any measurements for comparison.

Thinking about it, the 40GHz 8564E ought to have a 2.4mm connector at the front rather than an N connector. I think HP designed their own N connector such that it could work to 26.5GHz without any resonant suckout modes and this gets used on their 26.5GHz analysers. Their special N connector won't work to 40GHz though...

It would be worth it to try and find a healthy 2.4mm RF adaptor or some sort of transition to 2.4mm to allow you to make connections to the 40GHz HP8564E. I'm not sure how rugged the 2.4mm connectors are so be careful what you try and connect to it. Don't use something dodgy that might damage the 2.4mm connector.

Be prepared for how heavy these things are. They are a lot heavier than they look. Be careful with the carry handle as well. Only pick it up off the ground by the handle when the handle is straight in line with the instrument. Don't be tempted to pick it up off the ground if the handle is a click away from straight. The weight of the analyser will put a lot of stress there if the handle isn't straight and it can unclick itself and you end up with 20kg of spectrum analyser swinging free. The same can happen if you try to use the handle to lift it off a shelf. Best to not use the handle at all if it is on a shelf.
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Old 21st Oct 2021, 6:16 am   #10
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

Which areas of the CRT should I be looking at for faults? I will of course first turn on the unit (seller reports that power LED on switch is lit, and he hears relays clicking inside but no display) and go from there. I'm guessing the CRT is the same as can be found on a standard analogue oscilloscope. So the problem will either be in the HT power supplies, the supply for the tube heater, the grid biassing or the signals feeding the grid/s or plates. The seller says the display stopped working after being returned from being calibrated. So something (maybe a connector) may have been detached/disturbed. I will have a read of the disassembly info in the service manual in the meantime.
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Old 21st Oct 2021, 10:16 am   #11
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djsbriscoe View Post
Which areas of the CRT should I be looking at for faults? I will of course first turn on the unit (seller reports that power LED on switch is lit, and he hears relays clicking inside but no display) and go from there. I'm guessing the CRT is the same as can be found on a standard analogue oscilloscope. So the problem will either be in the HT power supplies, the supply for the tube heater, the grid biassing or the signals feeding the grid/s or plates. The seller says the display stopped working after being returned from being calibrated. So something (maybe a connector) may have been detached/disturbed. I will have a read of the disassembly info in the service manual in the meantime.
The CRT displays were used in many HP products of this era including logic analysers and scopes, there are also LCD conversion kits but views on those are mixed and they are expensive. Most faults are as you suggest in the high voltage areas, from my experience in the supplies that bias the high voltage to the CRT and the strings of resistors in the focus chain. It is best to check the basic composite output to a small TV monitor first to ensure the signal is present.
The Panasonic manual is here:- https://elektrotanya.com/panasonic_t.../download.html and I have attached the Omniscan circuit diagram.

With regard to the calibration constants some models had a memory card slot you could dump to, or use GPIB.
Another way of recording the settings is once you can see the screen you can list the calibration details on screen and use a digital camera/phone to take pictures I think about 3 screens worth.
There should be a label on the back giving the last change date for the battery. The manual give the procedure for changing it, I rigged up a small backup battery pack to maintain power while I changed my battery.
This link might be useful https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testge...ory-questions/
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Old 21st Oct 2021, 11:13 am   #12
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

Where do I get replacement batteries from?
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Old 21st Oct 2021, 12:51 pm   #13
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

I bought mine from RS.
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Old 22nd Oct 2021, 1:51 am   #14
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

Note that HP brought out two ranges of portable spectrum analyser back then and they both look the same at a casual glance. The HP859x range is very much the poor relation with limited RF performance and it uses a basic raster scan CRT. These analysers were already dated inside when they were new over 30 years ago. These analysers were designed for field service work with mediocre performance.

The HP856x range (which you have) looks very similar but these are proper lab instruments with very high performance. The CRT uses very different technology to produce a 600 x 600 vector display. This requires a special CRT drive method.

The awful HP859x range may well use battery backed cal constants but I think the high performance 856x portable range use EE memory for the critical calibration data. This should be quite secure and it's pointless changing the battery in this respect because the battery isn't used for EE memory.
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Old 22nd Oct 2021, 7:30 am   #15
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

The first thing I have to do to both of these units is a recap of the power supplies as it appears to be safety critical

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9KSWkZIqzk&t=289s

Shouldn't be too difficult as the units are very easy to service from the looks of it.

I can take note of any issues I come across during a visual inspection during disassembly/reassembly.
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Old 22nd Oct 2021, 12:05 pm   #16
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

The HP 8590A analyser was HP's first integrated portable spectrum analyser and based on the RF parts of the plug-in for the 180 scopes. The 8590A was indeed mediocre but it served as an illustration of better packaging. As a result, a project was started to see if the high performance 8566A big analyser could be crammed into an 8590A case. They succeeded and the 8560 etc portables were the result.

The 8560 family benefitted from a lower phase noise YIG, 10dB more logger range, 20dB more dynamic range shown on the screen, and a vector display on a scope tube display.

The 8590 didn't stand still. It grew the lock & roll suynthesis from the 8566A. Its magnetic scan raster CRT could survive shock and vibration which would kill a 6x's CRT. You can pipe it into a video recorder for long term monitoring, It grew a tracking generator internally (Big lack in the old 8566) then the biggie! It grew an expansion card cage and sudenly it had the narrow resolution bandwidths of the 8566, and a whole lot of special options the 8560 family had not got.

Um, suddenly, the 8560 famiy started looking dated. There was a major redesign of the 8560 family to adopt the option card cage from the 859xE family! and to bring out equivalent option cards.

People could afford 859x analysers that could never have afforded a 6x.

So the 9x was never a cut down 8560, because it came before the 8560. And the later ones of the family can do some things even the last of the 6x family can't do.

At the prices of these things the 9x was not a poor man's analyser. Less rich might be more accurate.

There's both an 8566B and a 9x variant prototype here (one never put into production, it challenged the 6x performance)

HP demolished the plant which had made their scope CRTs and the ones for the 6x analysers. No more CRTs! so the analysers changed over to a scope tube made by Panasonic. Then Panasonic stopped, so there was a last ditch update to put an LCD in the old box.

HP had a world-killer in the 8566 analyser. They had multiple projects to develop a new flagship, but each project got canned for various reasons. All told they made the money/time that would have developed a great box go away, but without the benefit of any tangible result. It was like watching concatenated train wrecks in slow motion. Rohde & Schwarz got ahead and stayed ahead. Eventually HP brought out the PSA analyser but there was a bug in the digitiser/DSP chipset which made some samples vanish (anathema as it made some spikes in the spectrum vanish) Chipset codename Boris and Natasha for Bullwinkle fans. Eventually they fixed it, but R&S stayed ahead.

So there you have it, the inside story of what that 8564E is.... the E means it's after the 8591E card cage was added.... and how it fits in.

David
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Old 22nd Oct 2021, 1:01 pm   #17
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

Thanks, David, for the background info.
They have both arrived, and it looks like the HP8564E has a problem with the attenuator. It works OK (as far as I can tell from a quick try out) on the -20db range but not on any other. Are these attenuators fixable? I know there is someone on eBay based in the USA who sells refurbished parts for these units.
I may just make do with the fixed -20db range for now until I can figure out how to fix it.
The HP8563E has no display showing so I'll be trying to get that fixed at some stage. These things are VERY heavy. I don't know why they are called portable.
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Old 22nd Oct 2021, 1:06 pm   #18
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

A few years ago someone on eevblog reverse engineered the 856x firmware and found undocumented GPIB commands. Amongst these commands is the ability to dump out the EE memory over GPIB. This EE memory should hold the cal constants.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testge...ackers-corner/

Quote:
FF0000-FF2000 Config EEPROM This address range contains the serial number, options and calibration constants (amplitude calibration, preselector calibration, etc.)
Obviously, take care if you try any of this and it is at your own risk. Best to stick to the read only commands for any memory. I think having a question mark after the command ensures a read. Using it without the question mark probably means a write

Quote:
There are some undocumented GPIB commands.
The most useful ones I found for now are ZRDWR and ZSETADDR. They allow to read analyser memory.
ZSETADDR sets the address in decimal (0 to 0xffffff)
ZRDWR? returns a single byte in decimal.
I'm yet to figure out the memory map. But it seems to be possible to read all RAM, ROM and device registers (ouch!) without restrictions.
I'm not sure I'd want to risk any of this unless I got to practise on a dead (BER) analyser first.

The main reason I've posted this is that it confirms that the cal constants are held in EE (EEPROM) memory and not battery backed RAM.

I've used the 8560A/E and 8563A/E on a regular basis since these models were released by HP and they are very nice analysers. It's definitely worth it to try and get them both working.
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Old 22nd Oct 2021, 1:09 pm   #19
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

Quote:
These things are VERY heavy. I don't know why they are called portable.
Ha! I did warn you I've had to do field trials with these in the past. Try carrying one from a car across a car park and then another 100 yards into a large test area. I was much younger the last time I tried this. Last week I carried one across the RF labs and that was about my limit.
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Old 22nd Oct 2021, 8:03 pm   #20
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Default Re: Bought a HP8564E & HP8563E Spectrum Analyser-Will I regret it?

Quote:
It works OK (as far as I can tell from a quick try out) on the -20db range but not on any other. Are these attenuators fixable?
I don't think they are meant to be fixable because 40GHz rated components are going to be very exotic and small. I would check out the external control of the attenuator before trying to dissect the attenuator. To lose all attenuation settings except 20dB seems a bit odd from an RF or DC damage point of view.

You might be lucky and there is a control issue such as a loose or defective ribbon cable to the attenuator.

I've never damaged a spectrum analyser front end in all my career so I don't know what chain of events occurs when too much RF or too much DC current flows into the attenuator. It would seem odd that it would be possible to burn out all sections bar one 20dB section.

Even if the insides of the attenuator are toast it should still be useable at a fixed 20dB attenuation. If there's nothing else wrong with it then it is a bargain.
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