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Old 24th Feb 2020, 10:32 am   #21
Junk Box Nick
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

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Originally Posted by merlinmaxwell View Post
As far as I can work out from the WT act it isn't illegal to listen to anything but illegal to pass on the information heard or let known you have listened.
Perhaps I'd better not mention that I used to listen to Radio Caroline.

(I now realise I was a serial offender whilst still in short trousers.)
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 12:08 pm   #22
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

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Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
As for the Codebreakers, I've remembered that I visited Bletchley in the early 90's when it was just getting going and I understood then, from the people there, that a lot of equipment was scrapped. Otherwise why the need to rebuild and put out a request for EF50's that got an amazing response?

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Old 24th Feb 2020, 1:03 pm   #23
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Back on the topic of 'Numbers Stations', the 'Lincolnshire Poacher' was so called because the station used bars from the tune as its ID during intervals. Groups of five numbers were read out with an English accented synthesised female voice, and for some reason, the last number in each group was higher pitched. Numbers stations have existed since WW2, but the Lincolnshire Poacher appeared in the 1970s during the Cold War era and continued until July 1968. It broadcast on a range of frequencies between 5.422 MHz and 16.084 MHz.

Though the location was never officially revealed, it was traced by amateurs to RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus.

At this link you can hear a sound clip of The Lincolshire Poacher ID and a group of numbers being read out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincol...umbers_station)

There was also a 'sister' numbers station covering Asia known as 'Cherry Ripe' based in Australia, which used bars of the tune of the same name for ID. It broadcast on several frequencies between 18.864 and 21.866 MHz and went off air in Dec 2009. Info about Cherry Ripe', and a sound clip of the ID and a group of numbers being read out is at this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry...umbers_station)

All very primitive in this day and age, but not so very long ago.

They were handy for SWLs to check the performance of short wave receivers!

Hope that's of interest.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 1:05 pm   #24
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Ah, I didn't know that Barretter! I hope you are above the waterline over the hill from Rammy in "Tod more den", as the uninitiated sometimes say. I used to hear that etheral voice David. Around 6 megs I think-can't be sure. I don't supposed anyone has revealed why it was felt so important to retain the system for so long?

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Old 24th Feb 2020, 1:49 pm   #25
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Does the number system still exist?
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 2:10 pm   #26
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

I happened by chance to hear the programme on Saturday evening. I must admit to not ever hearing the numbers stations directly despite a lifetime of radio listening. Drat!
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 2:28 pm   #27
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

The little bu**ers used to come up on one of our HF frequencies when I worked in the sands of Libya. Fortunately our secondary channel but they wiped it out.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 2:56 pm   #28
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

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All very primitive in this day and age, but not so very long ago.
Apparently, using a 'one-pad' decode system, almost impossible to crack as the programme explained.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 4:37 pm   #29
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

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Does the number system still exist?
I listened to the program and it spurred me on to explore online. I have yet to fire up the radio to search but I did come across this website online. They do appear to in some form.https://www.numbers-stations.com/art...starter-guide/
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 4:49 pm   #30
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Thank you.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 5:05 pm   #31
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

I think I might have a CD with recordings somewhere I heard about this a long time ago and was surprised to actually hear the numbers read out. Even then, I thought that it might be some sort of a hoax but the urban myth theory turned out to be wrong. It might have been around the the time of the "Woodpecker" Jammer or maybe a bit later. I've got a WP filter unit that came in the same group of gear that included a Nems Clarke 1500 RX but that would have too high a frequency range.

As J B Nick said, it seems to be a very difficult system to crack. I have no ability in that area whatsoever but given the interpretation of the WT Act offered earlier, being able to pass on a decode to a third party might well have been a serious matter. Unlikely I would think though. I had wondered if it's still in use as well.

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Old 24th Feb 2020, 8:19 pm   #32
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

At the ending of hostilities, some of the machinery at Bletchley park was sent elsewhere for future code breaking exploits (what became GCHQ) and the rest was broken up so comprehensively that it was made impossible to glean from the rubbish, what it had been used for. The breaking of the mechanical codes was kept secret and code machines were even sold to 'friendly' powers. It had not to not leak that they were easily breakable, so the personnel who had operated it all were impressed with the need (but not the reason) for secrecy. As it was, the secret persisted for decades.

Have a look at the recent news items on 'Crypto AG' the Swiss code machine firm that had been bought out by American and German spooks.

Makes you wonder just what got read. The Russians banned the eastern bloc countries from buying Crypto AG machines. Did the look at them and see flaws, or was someone on the inside telling them?

Curiouser and curiouser.

David
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 9:53 pm   #33
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

I first heard numbers stations at school - we had a BC348 in the school hobbies room hooked up to an end-fed wire. The interval signal was four rising notes and the numbers were in German and I remember it was somewhere below the 49m band - 5.xx MHz.

It was there regularly and the signal was always very strong so it was easy to find. The beauty of the system was that the person receiving could use an ordinary receiver which would not arouse suspicion and of course could be anywhere where propagation allowed reception.

Transmitting code via SW might seem low tech these days but it is impossible for third parties to know who is receiving the signal and of course radio waves do not observe borders. The drawback to the system seems to be that the decoding had to be done manually and as a result laborious.

Unlike the internet, where governments can control or even close it down entirely - witness the recent troubles in Kashmir where internet and mobile phone systems were shut down - the only way to block the transmissions is to resort to jamming and no doubt there were alternate frequencies in this case.

Short wave communication - broadcast or otherwise - is very useful at times of crisis and we throw it away at our peril.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 10:03 pm   #34
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

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Originally Posted by Junk Box Nick View Post
I first heard numbers stations at school - we had a BC348 in the school hobbies room hooked up to an end-fed wire. The interval signal was four rising notes and the numbers were in German and I remember it was somewhere below the 49m band - 5.xx MHz.

That would probably have been the one nicknamed "Magdeburg Annie".
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 11:10 pm   #35
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

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Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
I think I might have a CD with recordings somewhere I heard about this a long time ago and was surprised to actually hear the numbers read out. Even then, I thought that it might be some sort of a hoax but the urban myth theory turned out to be wrong. It might have been around the the time of the "Woodpecker" Jammer or maybe a bit later. I've got a WP filter unit that came in the same group of gear that included a Nems Clarke 1500 RX but that would have too high a frequency range.

Dave W
Was your CD from "The "Conet" project?

https://archive.org/details/ird059

They started long before the Woodpecker, it is said about 1960, there were certainly loads of them about when I began to listen in about 1966. Mainly German language.

There is one interval tune that I remember that I haven't rediscovered online.

A piano plays a rhythmic tune in an echoey room, It's almost like I can hear a troop of E German or Russian ballerinas practicing their jumps.

Perhaps I've just got a vivid imagination Dave.
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Old 25th Feb 2020, 3:41 am   #36
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Not sure Graham. Heading north so I will try to locate it. J B Nick, that is my view of SW gear exactly-it's not just a museum piece.Quite the opposite. You can't switch it off as easily. Once the ATM's don't work or your all electric home has no power, life gets really difficult. I keep saying this, there were no cell phones working during Hurricane Katrina [creating despair in itself] but the American Emergency Amateur Radio Network still functioned !

Dave
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Old 5th Mar 2020, 1:18 pm   #37
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

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Originally Posted by rambo1152
They started long before the Woodpecker, it is said about 1960, there were certainly loads of them about when I began to listen in about 1966. Mainly German language.
There is one interval tune that I remember that I haven't rediscovered online.
A piano plays a rhythmic tune in an echoey room, It's almost like I can hear a troop of E German or Russian ballerinas practicing their jumps."
You are not the only one to remember that signal.
I think I first heard it around 1960. It sounded like an extract from some piece by Scriabin, or a similar Russian composer. I believe the numbers were given in Polish, or a related language.
Incidentally, I can remember German numbers stations being around in the late fifties, usually using a scale played on a recorder as the tuning signal.
Often in the early days of those transmissions, one could hear faint "outdoor" background sounds.
Tony.
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Old 5th Mar 2020, 3:29 pm   #38
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

To quote David G4EBT
"Back on the topic of 'Numbers Stations', the 'Lincolnshire Poacher' was so called because the station used bars from the tune as its ID during intervals. "
RAF Digby in Lincolnshire was/is a station with a great deal of aerials. Not been past it for a few years though, hence my was/is comment.
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Old 5th Mar 2020, 4:47 pm   #39
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Heard the number stations many times during the 70s living in Coventry. Always a good clear signal. Used to listen for a while in case there was an announcement “and this ones for Wolfgang in Surbiton”. Getting a QSL card was difficult as well.......

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Old 5th Mar 2020, 6:00 pm   #40
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

One other thing that was strange about the German numbers station was that all the numbers seemed normal except one. Neu-gen - I assume used for Neun or Nine but it also means new. The G was definitely pronounced.

I'm sure it is similar to the Nine-er used in aviation and such but I have never seen proof positive. Does anyone know?
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