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Old 31st Dec 2019, 10:31 am   #1161
Argus25
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Putting the audiophoolary aside a little, Silver is superior to copper in nearly every electrical apparatus that silver replaced copper. But if it's worth the cost, one would wonder.

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Old 31st Dec 2019, 10:41 am   #1162
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

But a friend of a friend has a stupidly expensive system that my friend says sounds like expensive hi-fi. He describes mine as playing music.

Complete with very slight rumble, incorrect speed,and a worn stylus.
It sounds, Craig, like the perfect audio system.

AS I listen to my xmas present, Bob Dylan, John Wesley Harding LP.
Complete with origional microphone "bumps" and mouthings.
STILL a super LP.

Joe
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 10:50 am   #1163
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Precisely. That is the whole point, after all. John Crabbe's classic tome Hi Fi In The Home would have had the title Music In The Home had Thomas Heinitz not already used that tag for his shop.

A lot of the high end kit about these days is more ornament than tool - by William Morris' dictum, both have a place in the home. but it's best not to confuse one with the other.
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 10:57 am   #1164
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Silver is 7% more conductive than copper. Apart from RF applications where skin depth is a consideration, what else is there?

Well there is one pretty high technology and esoteric application. Way back I got involved with biosensors based on surface plasmon resonance. To get a deep resonance you needed a high conductivity metal at optical frequencies - and a sputter coating of silver was the only metal that really worked. It needed a thin coating of silica to prevent it tarnishing in saline solutions and also provided a good material to bond molecules to.

I looked seriously at gold because of its inertness, and going to the infrared where its reflectivity is good. But is goes down in an island film that tends to scatter too much.

But I guess that is not the sort of application you meant.

Silver plating is often used with copper wire when high temperature extruded insulation is applied (like PTFE) to prevent copper oxidising. But that is not for any electrical silver performance reasons - it is a barrier layer.

Craig
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 10:59 am   #1165
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Originally Posted by Ted Kendall View Post
Precisely. That is the whole point, after all. John Crabbe's classic tome Hi Fi In The Home would have had the title Music In The Home had Thomas Heinitz not already used that tag for his shop.

A lot of the high end kit about these days is more ornament than tool - by William Morris' dictum, both have a place in the home. but it's best not to confuse one with the other.
That is a great quote by one of my Arts and Crafts heroes!

Craig
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 11:19 am   #1166
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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But a friend of a friend has a stupidly expensive system that my friend says sounds like expensive hi-fi. He describes mine as playing music.
I know that thats meant as a bit of an insult but to me its a trueism because thats what I like to do listen to music. One thing I don't miss is all the faffing around.

Now all I do is just say Alexa play 70's rock I have just done that very thing and its started Pink Floyd Shine on you crazy diamond.

My wife likes to listen to ABBA and Motown.

If I had the money to spare would I spend a stupid amount on HiFi again ?

Possibly but I doubt I'd enjoy the result any more than I do now .

I would end up taking a record back half a dozen times like I did in the 70's till I got on that would play, Zeppelin 4 was particulary bad pressing ISTR. Where is the fun in that!

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Old 31st Dec 2019, 11:58 am   #1167
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

To be fair, I don't think Craig was taking a pop, more pointing out that "hi fi" and music can diverge, which I think is pretty much your point anyway. Mind you, I know your pain in one respect - pressing quality in the 70s could be dire, and I don't miss that - six copies of a Bob Seger album, all equally , for instance.

The aforementioned John Crabbe, a pioneer in driving disc reproduction standards up through his Hi Fi News reviews, abandoned the medium without regret as soon as the repertoire available on CD was sufficient. He didn't miss the faff, either, and said so. In the end, if it sounds right to you, it is right.
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 12:19 pm   #1168
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Yes I wasn't having a go at Craig far from it, the original insult from the friend of a friend was after all directed at Craig not myself.

But it was further directed to all of us who like to listen not get bogged down with how it's delivered.

I still like the feel of vinyl when I have the time and inclination but its just a medium like may others with its flaws and charms.

I think it become live and let live for me and like many here have a chuckle at mains leads made out of unicorn horn.

Cheers


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Old 31st Dec 2019, 12:34 pm   #1169
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

""Our cable elevators do the job simply and elegantly. Made from beech and supplied in sets of two or four, use them to lift your speaker cables 4cm (1.5") off the floor surface. They'll happily stand unaided on wooden or laminated floors but for carpeted surfaces you need to screw them down so they stand securely. Screws included""

Yes, but they should have said that they work better if you've a screw missing

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Old 31st Dec 2019, 1:15 pm   #1170
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

I promised myself a couple of improvements when I retired, which were a new CD player before they become extinct, a pair of Quad electrostatics, and with the relocation back to Cumbria where I was dragged up, amongst the renovations to the house was a very nicely proportioned new sitting room on the first floor with mountain view where I can listen to my music and look at the pennines across the valley.
Now when the itch needs scratching I jump on a train to Carlisle and spend any "upgrade" pocket money on some LP's or CD's .
I still dabble in hardware but it's of the what can I find used sort that interests me and I can move on for more or less what I paid for it plus any refurbishment costs if any.
That and my incurable romance with playing with homebrewed valve amplifiers and hopefully get some of the old radios I have working.
But I get what Craig and GJ and others say, I had my sisters project debut TT and Marantz PM45 with CD65 II on the rack recently giving it a good clean which is all it all needed to get an intermittent fault cleared. I tortured the PM45 into the ESL989s and it showed just how good it was and why I bought it for myself back in the 80's. I enjoyed the music just the same. It's good to get a sense of proportion now and then, what I have now is very audibly and probably measurably better than what I used 35 years ago but if I had to revert to that system for any reason, I wouldn't feel too much like I was losing out on the experience.
If any of that makes sense?

Andy
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 2:14 pm   #1171
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Yes I wasn't having a go at Craig far from it, the original insult from the friend of a friend was after all directed at Craig not myself.
I read it the other way! My interpretation was that music was the true aim of the game, and that the guy whose system was audibly expensive, but not music was seen as an amusement.

Um, yes... I have the whole of the original broadcasts of the hitch hiker's guide to the galaxy on open reel tape. Sadly, episode 7 was only broadcast in Scotland on radio 4 long wave despite the scottish edition of radio times going into lurid prose over the wonderful stereo effects in the new series.

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Old 31st Dec 2019, 2:37 pm   #1172
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Indeed. You can spend a shed load of money and end up with a system that is just not engaging in the way it should. In other words foot tapping bliss. Ivor Tieffenbrun of Linn used to say "If it sounds better, that is because it is better". Although that sounds like marketing, there is certainly some truth in that.

But I tell you what - when I go to an orchestral concert and close my eyes, the imaging is truly dire. I have to stop and remind myself that this is in fact reality.

And that is the key point. No matter how much you spend on an audio system, it cannot reproduce what live music is actually like. Doesn't matter what sort of music. It can still sound good or bad, engaging or not. But it is entirely an audio illusion.

Actually the thing that comes closest are the Mercury Living Presence records from the 1950's. They had the "radical" idea of using a crossed pair and two other mikes to pick up ambience in front of an orchestra. And they sound stunning. KISS wins.

Contrast that to Deutsche Grammofon where they insisted on putting a mike in front of each member of the orchestra and mixing it to sound the way they wanted. Which sounds nothing like reality at all.

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Old 31st Dec 2019, 2:44 pm   #1173
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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I think it become live and let live for me and like many here have a chuckle at mains leads made out of unicorn horn.
I agree, but I think there is some moral imperative for education so people can make informed decisions. There is the excuse that if they're buying it then they have the money to burn so it's no-one else's business, but as someone who believes in society that doesn't hold water with me. Chicanery and charlatans should be discouraged, not from a prim personal idea that if I wouldn't buy it then someone else shouldn't, but that it is damaging for society when people are practised upon.

Enjoyable as it is to laugh at people throwing money at confirmation bias, it masks the issues that in many ways the world is now so complex that very few people have the tools to navigate any aspects apart from their own niches. Mr Sawyers's argument that contending Russ Andrews's products are useless is harmful because he employs a dozen people in the Lake District is a straw-man. Really we should be asking why they are not making useful products, rather than saying it's a choice between hi-fi fuses or unemployment.

If they started a small-scale valve production company (I've seen videos of a man making valves in his kitchen) I think that would be a very worthwhile way of separating people from their money, while having a very obvious reason for the higher price over a Chinese option. Just like many people are very glad to pay a hundred times the sweat-shop price for locally-made clothing to support a tradition or a locality, I imagine limited UK-made valves with a swish website and factory tours would be a smash! Look at David Mellor's cutlery factory at Hathersage.

I applaud your objective of listening to music rather than components, but find the choice to do it through an Alexa troubling because of the privacy issues, destruction of small shops, working practices and all the other problems with Amazon (let alone the Internet of Things awfulness) that mean I have not availed myself of one of their products for 15 years. I don't say that from a high horse, but as part of an interesting discussion - recently it seems respectful discussion of opposing views cannot be held without vitriol or personal attack, which I endeavour not to be party to. I think there is enough material for trips to the pub for the next lifetime in 'the pursuit of convenience is damaging: discuss'.

I don't think there is enough conversation about the problems caused by these giant conglomerates and their consumerist treadmill. By that yardstick, I think I'd take unicorn tail mains leads any day! There is a certain Victorian quackery that is endearing about these products - the sense that despite all our professed sophistication and black-box touchscreens, we still rally and jostle to the "roll up, roll up ladies'n'genn'lmen! Have you ever heard the like? I have used not one, not two, but three refinements of pure silver in..."
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 3:18 pm   #1174
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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... If they started a small-scale valve production company (I've seen videos of a man making valves in his kitchen) I think that would be a very worthwhile way of separating people from their money, while having a very obvious reason for the higher price over a Chinese option ...
It turns out that making valves is an amusing hobby if you want a tiddly triode that works not very well for a little while. But it's tough to keep people's mortgages paid that way. For that you really have to work at a larger scale, as Brimar are aiming to do.

I'm not saying it's completely impossible. KR Audio in Prague do hand-made valves. They're not cheap though https://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/kr-...-matched-tubes (compare that with a pair of perfectly decent 'cooking' 300Bs from Russia for about 20% of the hand-made price). I note that KR have also diversified into manufacturing hi-fi equipment using their valves. I suspect the margin on this makes it much more financially rewarding.

Elrog in Germany also make their own 300Bs - €1300 per pair here http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/el...-main-page.htm.

Cheers,

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Old 31st Dec 2019, 4:43 pm   #1175
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Craig's comment [at the end of 1157] "chimes" with what I observe. If you were foolish enough to look back at some of my posts related to sound reproduction, you will often find me referring to the psychological factor which [if it "fools" the individual in a positive way] may, perhaps, do some good although not if it's just simply "I've got a bigger and better FS TV/Amplifier or Car than you!" It's a bit like the Placebo effect in medicine and how recovery rates can be better if your Doctor empathises with you or has the time. The other extreme is someone so fixated on the Hi-Fi that they end up listening just to test records and have nothing else to talk about This boils down to Hearing or Seeing is not just a technical process in the human body or the hardware.

Dave W

J W Hardin.. astounding LP Joe p1162*. [So many people think Hendrix wrote All Along The Watchtower! It's a great Quiz Question]. I'm always polite with doorstep Evangelists and they are always surprised when they ask me "Have you heard about Jesus and the Bible?" because I say [genuinely] "Yes and I'm especially interested the The Old Testament and it's relationship to the work of Bob Dylan".
Invariably this startles and confuses them... as it's not in the call centre type script. One person just walked away [backwards].

Be careful out there Joe-as they used to say in NYPD!

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Old 31st Dec 2019, 4:47 pm   #1176
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Actually the thing that comes closest are the Mercury Living Presence records from the 1950's. They had the "radical" idea of using a crossed pair and two other mikes to pick up ambience in front of an orchestra. And they sound stunning. KISS wins.
Indeed they do. I once had the enlightening experience of having a few drinks with Bob Auger, one of the most prolific and professional recording engineers of his day. He worked for a time with Bob Fine, the architect of Living Presence, and pointed out to me why it worked and why he didn't work that way generally. "Bob was a very agressive engineer - what he said went as far as layout went, and the band just had to go with it...the mic was part of it, too. He used these Telefunken 251s - hard as ****** nails, they were, but you could use them a long way back and still get the presence..."

Now Bob worked right across the piece as an engineer, and when it came to classical recording one of the points uppermost in his mind was the cost of orchestral time. Like Tony Askew, for whom I balanced, he aimed to have a workable sound ready to go within ten minutes of the session start, and this necessitated a multi-mic/multi-track technique, although his balances sound far more natural than the general run of American orchestral recordings, and indeed most DGs. He grasped the point that so many engineers didn't, that you don't pull the sound apart without a clear idea about how you are going to put it back together.
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 5:42 pm   #1177
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Older and wiser seems to be a recurring theme. Or is it been there, done that, now enjoying the memory from a safe distance.
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 6:52 pm   #1178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobaltblue View Post
I think it become live and let live for me and like many here have a chuckle at mains leads made out of unicorn horn.
Mr Sawyers's argument that contending Russ Andrews's products are useless is harmful because he employs a dozen people in the Lake District is a straw-man. Really we should be asking why they are not making useful products, rather than saying it's a choice between hi-fi fuses or unemployment.

If they started a small-scale valve production company
I don't believe it is a straw man. The argument you make of a small company manufacturing X rather than Y could be leveled at Bugatti for example - although there are many more. A more useless item has never been manufactured than the Veyron. It is after all a four wheel vehicle, that you cannot possibly use to more than 10% of its capability unless you hire a race track for a day. Why are they not manufacturing something more useful like cost effective electric vehicles?

Anyway, regarding valve manufacture https://brimaruk.com/menugbvp/great-...lve-project-2/ . They have now procured 30-odd machines that were originally at Mullard Blackburn before being scattered all over Europe.

They are working at full restoration and British valve manufacture for the first time in many decades.

Craig
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 8:37 pm   #1179
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Originally Posted by Craig Sawyers View Post

But I tell you what - when I go to an orchestral concert and close my eyes, the imaging is truly dire. I have to stop and remind myself that this is in fact reality.

And that is the key point. No matter how much you spend on an audio system, it cannot reproduce what live music is actually like. Doesn't matter what sort of music. It can still sound good or bad, engaging or not. But it is entirely an audio illusion.



Craig
This is what a lot of people don't understand. The difference between a studio recording and seeing/hearing a live band/orchestra. Never the twain. The former is produced in 'perfect' conditions to result in a recording that does indeed portray stereo imaging, individual instrument balance and clarity. It's not a terribly difficult process if sound reflections are minimised and ambience (reverb and delay) are added afterwards. Of course, suffice to say that a good band and a good producer and recording engineer are prerequisite.

On a slightly different note, ie comparing studio recordings with live recordings (not live music) a hifi system is not geared towards reproducing live music any more than it is studio recording. It is, or should be, geared towards reproducing the music from the medium in which it was recorded as accurately and as faithfully as possible. Whilst a live recording can portray 'liveness' and the 'moment', it is rare that the actual recording quality comes anywhere near to controlled, produced, studio recordings of the same pieces, and that applies to orchestras as well as it applies to say, rock bands. In a live recording, so many things are not 100% as well as they might be, be it the jumbled room ambience ie lack of individuality of instruments and vocalists, players mistakes etc etc. Now, I'm not saying that that makes live recordings always any less enjoyable, it doesn't, but you can't have your cake and eat it as they say. If you want perfect intonation, instrument balance, clarity etc etc, it has to be a studio recording. If you want to 'hear the moment' with warts et all, then live recordings are often able to provide just that. The hifi system, the 'portal', has little if any effect on portraying one better than the other. Live music (and live recordings) and studio recordings are totally different things, and neither of them anything to do with a hifi system. The latter stands or falls on its ability to accurately reproduce what is presented to it in analogue or digital form.
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Old 31st Dec 2019, 8:55 pm   #1180
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Seems like the 'phools have discovered the humble 6C4 triode. Even that little valve has come to their attention. But make sure you buy the Mullard version because it makes a better sound.

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