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Vintage Computers Any vintage computer systems, calculators, video games etc., but with an emphasis on 1980s and earlier equipment.

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Old 18th Aug 2020, 9:12 pm   #21
Slothie
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Default Re: Softy 1

The instructions are readable but the schematic really needs a much higher resolution to be readable. So if you do get a chance to rescan it it would be interesting, if only to see how they did it.
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 9:43 pm   #22
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Default Re: Softy 1

We should probably point out that the forum engine greatly reduces the resolution of any detailed image attached to a post in order to get it down to a reasonable size, so the best way to attach a good scan of a circuit diagram is to bung it into a .zip and attach that. Even then, there is a maximum allowed .zip file size so it may help to scan the image initially as 256 or 16 colour greyscale.

It certainly would be interesting to get a good look at the diagram but as with the Scrumpi 3 the main stumbling block would be the absence of the firmware which ran it.
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Old 18th Aug 2020, 10:49 pm   #23
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Default Re: Softy 1

I just tried the link in post #4, it has a decent scan of the Softy manual, which includes the schematic. Now we just need a source for the firmware !.
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Old 19th Aug 2020, 12:44 am   #24
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Default Re: Softy 1

I suppose what we're really looking for is a complete machine with the firmware in it. Why didn't you memorise every byte of the firmware when you had one in front of you? (Kidding).

This does raise an interesting question - if you were the owner of virtually the only surviving Softy 1 in the world, and assuming that gave it some sort of value, would you encourage or assist in the making of clones? I've thought the same thing about systems like the MK14 - a while ago the only way you could get an MK14, if you really wanted one, was to buy a real one and at one point they were going for ridiculous money, sometimes four figures.

I expected that the appearance of the various clones would have a moderating effect on the price of the real thing because a good percentage of those chasing after any which came up for sale were really just looking to relive a little bit of their youth and you can do that perfectly well with a nice clone, furthermore you don't have to treat a clone as though it is made of glass, so you can play with it properly.

We just have to hope that anyone who does have a Softy or a Scrumpi 3 cares more about the love for and preservation of electronics history than about the value of their genuine item.
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Old 19th Aug 2020, 12:24 pm   #25
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Default Re: Softy 1

Yes, a fully working Softy would bring back some youthfull memories.

But after reading the manual posted in link #4, I've realised the my memories are distorted by time, and the knowledge gained over that time.

Back then I was impressed that a £100 device could program, emulate, and display EPROMs on a TV.

It was touted as being capable of running user code as well, so I saw it as a SCMP with VDU, but better than the MK14 VDU.

I'm glad I didn't buy one for myself !.

Reading the manual it's explained how the SCMP and VDU interact. Basically the SCMP runs at full speed, but the VDU access is turned off during this time. Only when the SCMP is ready for a keypress does the VDU have access, but the SCMP is now in HOLD mode, it's doing absolutley nothing !.

No use at all for interactive games. I would have been seriously disappointed if I'd found that out 40 years ago.

Cheers,

Buzby
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Old 19th Aug 2020, 3:49 pm   #26
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Default Re: Softy 1

I have a reasonable scan of my Softy 1 manual (the schematic is certainly readable), but for various reasons I can't send it out before next week. But if you want it then, I can help.

I have no idea if my Softy is still operational, but if it is, I can try to dump the firmware. I do have a programmer than can handle the 2708, thankfully. To answer another point, I've shared PROM and PAL data for a machine a lot rarer than anything discussed here, my view is that the value of my Softy (or whatever) is not affected by people restoring them or making clones of it.
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Old 19th Aug 2020, 4:30 pm   #27
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Default Re: Softy 1

If it is operational, Tony, then I think you should read, back up and refresh the firmware if only for your own peace of mind. An EPROM that age must be very close to the onset of bit-rot by now. It would be a pity to let a working example just fade away into non-working condition.

Of course it would be great if you would also distribute the firmware more widely so that there is more than one source from which it can be retrieved if the need arises.

I do think the wide availability of clones / replicas impacts on the value of original items. When the only examples available are the genuine item, would-be collectors first of all have to get past whatever maximum price the casual buyers, the ones who would be happy with a replica, will pay. That price then becomes the base price beyond which the collectors have to compete with each other.

As to whether I care about that, no, the only such 'eligible' Item I have is my MK14 and it is highly unlikely that I will ever sell it, so it doesn't really matter to me whether prices go up or down.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 6:56 pm   #28
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Default Re: Softy 1

Tony / others - did you ever manage to readout the contents of your Softy's 2708 EPROM / able to upload it here etc?

As a friend who remembers these from back then, is looking to build a copy.

He's just produced his own Mk14 replica PCB, which worked first time, with PROM's he programmed with V2 SCIOS. And he has now just put up all the details / downloads of firmware versions found here:

http://theoddys.com/acorn/Acorn%20Sy...Mk14/mk14.html

- to go along with his Acorn System's, he'd started out documenting / making replicas of ones to add to his early originals. Plus is selling surplus boards / components for many of these, to others who may be interested.

Although we'd found a few copies of the Mk14 around the 'net, some seem to have been produced from listings in the manual - which has the odd error! (And he'd discovered, when he compared them to what I readout from my National Semiconductor Corp Introkit's obscure non-JEDEC std. MM5204 EPROM - so I had to make a readout adapter to a more standard 2716, as there doesn't seem to many programmers around supporting the MM5204 (or 2708) directly))

Whereas Mk14 SCIOS V1 was the same as the NS Introkit (Mk14 manual's source-code listing doesn't even change names!), but with an unnecessary instruction changed to a NOP as others on here had found, so he found an error elsewhere in the listing with a Jump instruction.

Luckily, it seems V2 SCIOS files we'd found on the net were correct as it now appears to be verified to be working OK (although yet to test cassette parts)

TIA,
Owen
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 9:54 pm   #29
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Default Re: Softy 1

That will be interesting if a copy of the SOFTY could become available - I would be interested in building one.

Note that your friend's MK14 replica looks good - there is an error in the memory map on the site though as the IO chip registers are at 0800 and the ram at 0880 - hopefully this error is not present on the actual board? There are a lot of threads here with Mk14 data and software - including some on the VDU if he wants to build one or the OrtonView clone.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 10:24 pm   #30
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Default Re: Softy 1

Its a nice clone - more "authentic" than mine Its nice to see a schematic of the MK14 with what looks like the address decode mods incorporated in the manner described in the SoC document.
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Old 6th Dec 2020, 11:07 pm   #31
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Default Re: Softy 1

Regarding MK14 'original' OS version PROMs, by sheer coincidence I happened to have a pair of genuine, original and working SOC-supplied V1 PROMs pass through my hands for a few hours about two days ago (thanks Buzby) and while I had them I naturally took the opportunity to read them and save their contents as two files, so they are there to be called upon should anyone really want them.

Personally, I would never look again at the original OS, the revised 'new' OS is so much better.

TonyDuell, did you ever have the time to read your SOFTY 1 EPROM?
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 12:35 am   #32
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Default Re: Softy 1

SiriusHardware, It would be interesting to see what the contents of these are at location $0046

- whether it is $CA, as per National Semiconductors SCMPKB
(V3? - as my NS Introkit MM5204 EPROM appeared to be labelled, as it replaced original MM5214 etc. ROM's with KITBUG)
Or if it is $08 (NOP), as I'd read that SCIOS V1 had been changed to (but original manual listing wasn't updated), to 'optimise' the code a bit as 9th digit is not used / connected on either.
It seems Jmp instruction error was actually on a SCIOS V2 listing, but had discovered it by comparing with actual binary files.

He had intended his replica to be as close as to an 'V' as possible (apart from keyboard, to make this better), with address decoder mods incorporated
- Although then no spare gates (& need extra IC) for single-stepping mods.
And had copied original layout & tracking etc. as close as possible.

So actual implemented memory-map should be correct and says he will correct his published version.

Back to Softy EPROM Programmer, he'd recently spotted one going for £47 on a certain online auction site - but it was in a bit of a state with many IC's missing (including ironically the EPROM!) and borken odd-looking round switches.
I had originally included a link to it in my post, but it seems that this is not allowed (even though it had now ended). It did have good photos - especially the underside, with no components covering tracks) so could help in making replicas.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 1:54 am   #33
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Default Re: Softy 1

Just had a quick look, the byte at 0046 in those original MK14 old-OS PROMs is 'CA' which I believe the V1 manual listing agrees with. There is a version of the old-OS code on Martin L's website where someone has 'tidied' that to a NOP (08), but that wasn't the original value at that location.

Nibble checksum of the high nibble PROM is 0D20
Nibble checksum of the low nibble PROM is 0D5C

For any further discussion about the MK14, we should probably continue over in one of the main MK14 threads. 'MK14 schematic revisions' seems to be our rolling all-you-can-eat thread concerning the MK14.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 12:45 pm   #34
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Default Re: Softy 1

Thanks for the confirmation of the contents, which hopefully clears-up the confusion over this byte change.
And I will no doubt find more Mk14 issues for other threads on here, now I'm also finishing-off assembly of one of my friend's replica Mk14 PCB for myself.


Back to Softy again, here a different link (hopefully allowed) to a picture of that one that sold recently but needed a bit of restoration....

https://picclick.co.uk/Vintage-SOFTY...l#&gid=1&pid=1

Although did have the INS8060 & 8154's still fitted so if still working wasn't too bad for what it had gone for.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 2:12 pm   #35
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Default Re: Softy 1

Gosh, poor thing, incredible that it managed to dodge being thrown out for so long when in such terrible condition. Good image though. I am afraid to say it may only have been bought for those two ICs. I hope not.
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Old 7th Dec 2020, 3:09 pm   #36
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Default Re: Softy 1

I didn't see what it went for, but I saw it and thought it was a little too far gone for me, especially since the EPROM was missing. There are schematics out there so repairing the hardware wouldn't be too hard, but without the firmware it was going to be hard to ressurect.
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Old 8th Dec 2020, 10:23 pm   #37
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Default Re: Softy 1

Also IC9 is a 256x4 PROM, so those bit patterns would be required.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 1:05 am   #38
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Default Re: Softy 1

Well if you were just after the 2 IC's, you could buy them (and in theory some guarantee they would be OK) for rather less - especially if you don't use the generally rather highly-priced UK obsolete component specialists!

Chris & me independently bought the INS8060's off a well known auction site from Far East sellers for around £15. And although they both had a rather strange SM62534 number in small font printed in white in the corner (completely different looking the the National Semiconductor part numbering, which is also often on a bit of a slant!), they both work in his replica Mk14.

INS8154's can be a bit more tricky to get hold of, but found Rockby in Australia had quite a few Gold-lid ceramic ones at < AU $13 each (Just that they don't have an online shop and shipping + potential customs collection fees can be quite significant if not doing a significant order to spread the cost)


I will have to see what IC9 PROM was used for - maybe a char gen. or for address-decoding - and I presume that had already been robbed off that board (not that a used PROM is useful for much else!). But the scan of the manual's circuit I'd seen so far was rather low-res so will have to take another look.

It did also come with (an original?) manual, so might have been useful to do a better scan from.

The provided images of the board could be rather useful in making your own copy, as underside tracking could all be seen, and topside could probably be worked out where it goes under IC's once you've captured schematic and put in underside on a PCB CAD program.
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 5:35 am   #39
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Default Re: Softy 1

IC9 is the character generator. It converts a nybble from memory into the appropriate 0-F pattern.

I have an original Softy manual and the circuit diagram in there is not at all easy to follow!
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Old 10th Dec 2020, 1:01 pm   #40
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Default Re: Softy 1

Thanks Tony, for the info - Looks like a readout of this one as well would be useful, if you have the capability (Although if there's only sixteen characters, it shouldn't be too difficult to work out what contents is)

I had thought that it might be possible to substitute it with a ready-programmed character (P)ROM, like that used on some other SC/MP systems VDU boards but I expect input codes would be different.

I will have to have another look at their diagram, to see if I can see what's going on (Hopefully not as unclear as Mk14 one is in places, with early one having no pin numbers and not showing RAM address lines pin swaps)


Did you ever manage to read out the 2708 EPROM from your Softy?
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