UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc)

Notices

Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc) Amplifiers, speakers, gramophones and other audio equipment.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 27th Nov 2022, 5:18 pm   #1
samjmann
Heptode
 
samjmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Nottingham, UK.
Posts: 510
Default Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

The output transistors on this amp have failed on one channel. They are:

2SD531. NPN. 50-60V C-E. 5A Max collector current. (TO-220C)

2SB521. PNP. Similar values to the above.

What would make a good substitute? I can find datasheets on these, but no actual parts.

The drivers have also failed, these are available.

Some have suggested a TIP41/42. The only thing that bothers me is these have a Transistion Frequency of 35Mhz. The 2SD531 is 8Mhz...

I don't want a short lived high power oscillator!

Thanks for any help. SJM.
__________________
It's never been right since we've had it...
samjmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th Nov 2022, 1:41 pm   #2
orbanp1
Heptode
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 644
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

Hi SJM,

Chances are the TIP transistors would be OK.
Doing a quick simulation the phase margin with the TIP transistors would be about 30 degrees.
(I tried to use transistors with similar parameters in the other positions.)
30 degrees phase margin is still stable, but it would not hurt to have a higher margin.
Adding a 10pF high frequency compensating capacitor parallel with the R708 47k feedback resistor the phase margin is increased to about 70 degrees.
I would try the TIP transistors with the added compensating cap.

Regards, Peter
orbanp1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th Nov 2022, 3:33 pm   #3
Diabolical Artificer
Dekatron
 
Diabolical Artificer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sleaford, Lincs. UK.
Posts: 6,948
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

This - https://alltransistors.com/crsearch....=45&caps=TO220 gives the MJE15032/3 as replacements and which seem to be available - https://cpc.farnell.com/on-semicondu...220/dp/SC06827

Andy.
__________________
Curiosity hasn't killed this cat...so far.
Diabolical Artificer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th Nov 2022, 6:53 pm   #4
orbanp1
Heptode
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 644
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

Double checked the spice model of the TIP41, it has an Ft of 4MHz to 6MHz, depending on the Vce voltage.
Checked the Ft of the MJE15032 model too, it has Ft around 30MHz.
Running the simulation with the MJE transistors the phase margin of the amp is only 16 degrees, which is clearly not enough!
Applying the 10pF compensating cap the phase margin increases to 73 degrees with the MJE transistors too.
So do use the compensating cap if you use better transistors!
Also, I would make both channels identical.

Regards, Peter
orbanp1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th Nov 2022, 7:54 pm   #5
samjmann
Heptode
 
samjmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Nottingham, UK.
Posts: 510
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

Thanks so much for such informative answers. I will indeed apply the 10pf cap on the feedback line to both channels. The other channel is running but the stability may well be compromised
as it also had had substitute transistors fitted!

Thanks again Peter and Andy.

SJM.
__________________
It's never been right since we've had it...
samjmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th Nov 2022, 8:55 pm   #6
Radio Wrangler
Moderator
 
Radio Wrangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 20,920
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

When you compare Ft and Hfe values of different devices, be suspicious, and look carefully at the conditions the specs apply to. Sometimes you're lucky and see that devices are more similar than first meets the eye, sometimes you lose.

It's easiest to compare if you can find plots of Hfe and Ft versus collector current.

Spot values depend somewhat on which spot someone picks. They usually go for the best looking number, but best for whatever target market they have in mind.

David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done
Radio Wrangler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd Jan 2023, 7:58 pm   #7
samjmann
Heptode
 
samjmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Nottingham, UK.
Posts: 510
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

Finally got round to fitting the new MJE ouput transistors. The defective channel ran up first go no problem. I'd set the quiescient current pot to minimum current before switching on. I've also added the 10pf cap across the feedback resistor too.

The service manual quotes a set up current of 50mv across 0.94ohms. This equates to 53mA, this seems very high to me. I would have thought that 10-15mA would have been Ok for a small amp like this.

Thanks again to all who have replied. Christmas, long hours at work and and the flu got in the way of a quick job!!

SJM
__________________
It's never been right since we've had it...
samjmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd Jan 2023, 10:26 pm   #8
vidjoman
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: East Sussex, UK.
Posts: 3,010
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samjmann View Post
The service manual quotes a set up current of 50mv across 0.94ohms
Are you sure it's not 5.0 mv. Many Japanese manuals write it that way and often the dot is only just visible.
vidjoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd Jan 2023, 10:30 am   #9
samjmann
Heptode
 
samjmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Nottingham, UK.
Posts: 510
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

Thanks vidjoman. Around 5mA seems a reasonable current setting.
I've got a manual for a Sansui AU-919 which is a huge 100w twin transformer amp, this only sits at 30mA quiescent, so this 25W Sony must be way less than this.

Whilst I was working on it, a small trimmer cap which is on top of the tuning gang just fell apart. The FM oscillator is now way off but the calibration was nearly right before. It has '20' stamped on it so I assuming that's 20pF. I've ordered that and some near values and try to set it. I'm not touching anything else in the RF stages, it's easy to make things worse!

SJM.
__________________
It's never been right since we've had it...
samjmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th Jan 2023, 11:17 pm   #10
samjmann
Heptode
 
samjmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Nottingham, UK.
Posts: 510
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

Update after fitting! After replacement of both output transistors all was well. Well at least for a while...

The set up went ok, both channels had much the same quiescent conditions. However a week later after switching on, the same two transistors went short again. Clearly something was wrong. I'd checked the bias diode D701/D751 and it read ok. I was having to now put the bias pot at near short circuit to stop the 2nd replacement set of output transistors failing. The SV04 bias diode now reads O/C but only when the leads are moved. Its mounted on a tag that's attached to the top output transistor.

The SV04 is a 4 diode package, the good one reads 2.3v on my meter
Does anyone know of a suitable replacement?

I could make up substitute with a 4 diode string. I'm not to sure what the current would be in the diode string, hence what would make a good substitute.

Regards SJM
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screenshot_20230129_205009_File Viewer.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	78.1 KB
ID:	272414  
__________________
It's never been right since we've had it...
samjmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st Jan 2023, 1:33 pm   #11
orbanp1
Heptode
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 644
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

Hi SJM,

The current through those diodes is close to the current of the VAS stage, in your case it is about 3.7mA according to simulations.
Small signal Si diodes, like 1N914 diodes, are fine there.

Regards, Peter
orbanp1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st Jan 2023, 1:57 pm   #12
G6ONEDave
Octode
 
G6ONEDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Owston Ferry, North Lincolnshire, UK.
Posts: 1,278
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

According to my Jaeger book the SV04 is a described as 'Si-Varistor' 'VDR/Varistor'. My ECA book shows it as being a 2.7v Zener, no current rating given. Might be worth checking carefully before replacement.

Dave
__________________
Quote "All is hyperthetical, until it isn't!" (President Laura Roslin, Battlestar Galactica)
G6ONEDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Feb 2023, 9:51 pm   #13
samjmann
Heptode
 
samjmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Nottingham, UK.
Posts: 510
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

Thank you both for the replies. I made up a four diode string, insulated it, and mounted it on the original tag. Using a lamp limiter gingerly switched on. Both stages now had exactly the same voltage across the bias diode. Removing the limiter the quiescent current did indeed set to 50mv across the emitter resistor test point.

I left the amp running quite loud for an hour and re-checked the quiescent value. It had dropped from 50mV after 5min cold, to 42mV warm after been driven. Both channels reacted the same. So pronounced fit!

Output stages really can be 'fun' SJM.
__________________
It's never been right since we've had it...
samjmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 6:59 am   #14
Diabolical Artificer
Dekatron
 
Diabolical Artificer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sleaford, Lincs. UK.
Posts: 6,948
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

Have you checked the OP on a scope to make sure it's not oscillating at HF?

Andy.
__________________
Curiosity hasn't killed this cat...so far.
Diabolical Artificer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 8:22 pm   #15
samjmann
Heptode
 
samjmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Nottingham, UK.
Posts: 510
Default Re: Sony-STR3800L. Output transistors.

No Andy, I haven't. It runs cool enough but this does not mean everything is 100%. I'll make up a square wave recording at various frequencies from 100Hz to 10kHz and see if there are any oscillations on the vertical/horizontal transitions.

Regards SJM.
__________________
It's never been right since we've had it...
samjmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT. The time now is 8:30 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.