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Old 7th Nov 2022, 12:06 pm   #61
af024
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Regrettably I can't seem to spot where we established that the BSR X5M cartridge took the metal shanked stylus and the BSR X5H took the plastic (thicker) shanked stylus, but do we know of the same is true for the BSR X1M and the BSR X1H cartridges? It's just that I've seen the ST3 stylus (metal shanked) quoted in some places for the X1H and intuitively this seems wrong given what we've learnt about the X5H. Good game eh.
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 12:19 pm   #62
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

The X5M takes the ST12/14/15/19 and the X5H the ST8/9/10 plastic. It is on the list I put together.

There is little info about the X1 (looks very like the X3?), I have seen both the M and H with plastic styli. Judging by the shape of the rubber yoke, which seems the same on both, I doubt a metal stylus would work well at all in one. Unfortunately I don't have a working example to try it out!

The ST3/4 were usually fitted to the C1. They have a rather unusual tip to account for the rake angle of said cart.
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 12:52 pm   #63
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Hello Ben, thanks for your reply. I have an X1H and it's fitted with an ST3 stylus. The cartridge is working ok, but the stylus doesn't seem right. Take a look at the weird rake on it. The problem will probably be resolved with a plastic shanked stylus. I attach some photos of the X1H in question. By the way I've also seen the X1H in yellow plastic (at least I think it was an X1H).

I also didn't realise until recently that the X1H isn't stereo compatible. I find that a bit strange since there doesn't seem to be much difference between the stylus suspension on the X1H when compared with the X5H (which is allegedly SC). Not that I like the idea of using a plastic shanked stylus with an X5H to play stereo records anyway. Just goes to show.
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 12:52 pm   #64
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

An associated question is within the two families what is the difference between the different types?
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 4:11 pm   #65
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

That's a good question! Also, was there an X2H and an X4H.

Anyhow, I've solved one mystery, I've found the yellow cartridge of which I spoke. It's not an X1H after all, it's an X3H! Apart from the slight change in the stylus retainer design, I can't see any other visual differences. So yes, this range of XnH cartridges are a bit of a mystery it seems.
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 4:38 pm   #66
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by af024 View Post
I also didn't realise until recently that the X1H isn't stereo compatible.
No, incorrect.

That cartridge IS stereo compatible.
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 5:12 pm   #67
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Just for clarification, in anther post it is stated all BSR “flip under “ stylii are stereo compatible “ is that correct?
John.

Last edited by John10b; 7th Nov 2022 at 5:17 pm.
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 5:19 pm   #68
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

I'm not sure it's that simple John as the suspension arrangement in the cartridge also plays a large part.

No doubt someone has the definitive answer somewhere.

If only some info on these earlier BSR cartridges would surface.
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 5:19 pm   #69
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Yes John - and you corrected your post just in time!
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 5:22 pm   #70
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by af024 View Post
No doubt someone has the definitive answer somewhere.
We've been here before and old documentary evidence eventually proved it.

That said, I wouldn't recommend playing your mint condition prog rock with one!
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 5:37 pm   #71
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

See also post #5 and #9 of this thread:-
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=84234
So I'm not at all clear on the definitive answer.
Regardless, I agree with not playing anything precious using these cartridges!
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 6:50 pm   #72
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

The X1 range of cartridges introduced in 1965 were definitely not stereo compatible cartridges. They were introduced as replacements for the long running TC8 range.
BSR quickly replaced the X1 range with the short lived X2 range which morphed into the fully stereo compatible X3 range.
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Old 7th Nov 2022, 8:56 pm   #73
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by af024 View Post
Apart from the slight change in the stylus retainer design, I can't see any other visual differences.
.
If you look closely at the coupling rubber I think you will see that on the x1 it is completely solid and on the x3 there is a hole in it so that it has a bit of give
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Old 8th Nov 2022, 11:54 am   #74
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Ah, well spotted. Of course if that's all that makes it SC, it makes me wonder if a non SC X1H could be made SC by swapping out the rubber coupling from say and non-working X3H.

I found some more examples -
X1M, X1H, X2HE (not sure what the E means), X3M and X3H - see photos. Sorry about the poor flash photography on the iPhone! Give me a 35mm SLR any day ...

.. and yes, the hole only appears at the X3M/X3H cartridge. I wonder why BSR didn't do that from the beginning. Hindsight's a wonderful thing though isn't it.
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Old 8th Nov 2022, 12:28 pm   #75
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Interesting pictures thanks for posting, food for thought on stereo compatibility.
John
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 12:56 pm   #76
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

The X1 is (or was) definitely designed to be stereo compatible.

The difference noticed in the design of the coupling rubber is normal design progression over time and would have been the reason that the redesigned and supposedly improved version was given another type number over the original X1 design, such as X2 and X3.

The pdf below clearly states the following:
"Latest B.S.R. MONO COMPATIBLE CARTRIDGE With turnover sapphire styli suitable for playing EP, LP and Stereo records with mono equipment". This is word for word from the pdf.

We must base what we say on fact and stop pedalling misinformation when there's no hard evidence to back up such statements, as people will read this while researching information for long into the future.

I seem to think that I've got other original BSR data that covers these cartridges and I thought that I'd scanned it and saved it somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment, but when I do I'll post it up on here. So for now we'll have to make do with the pdf below - 2 down below the EMI 4-speed player article on the right hand side - see below:-
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 5:00 pm   #77
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Original BSR data would be great Techman. I guess that's what we are all seeking. Thank you for your input.
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 5:55 pm   #78
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

There seem s to be confusion here regarding the BSR X1 series of cartridges.
I have always understood that they are mono only. As noted by David Freeman, they were a successor to the venerable TC8 and in both the crystal element is mounted in the vertical plane, with very little vertical compliance.
The later stereo compatible ones (X3M, X5M etc.) have the element mounted in a horizontal plane and have greater vertical compliance. The styli for these have stereo LP tips and will fit the X1 series.
Maybe this is where the confusion occurs.

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Old 9th Nov 2022, 6:20 pm   #79
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

My understanding was always that all the "flip-under" styli were for stereo use - unlike the former mono only "turn-over" type.
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 8:23 pm   #80
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Default Re: Ceramic and Crystal cartridge specs.

Some interesting thoughts regarding the mounting position of the crystal element. However, the question we have to ask ourselves is what affects the actual vertical compliance of the cartridge, is it the position of a piece of crystal deep within the cartridge or is it the physical mechanics of the stylus shank and its rubber coupling component? I think we probably know the answer to that one, but certainly interesting to note this difference nonetheless.

It's as Edward says (and also others as well as myself) the 'flip-under' stylus was designed for stereo compatibility, regardless of whether the internal element of the cartridge was stereo or mono. A bigger debate is the compatibility and vertical compliance of the TC8S with its stiff metal shanked stylus, just the same as the mono element version - and the answer to that one is "not a lot".

The bottom line is whether you'd risk your best and most valuable record on any of these early cartridges that may well have 'hardened up' rubber parts anyway due to age. Even the later high output version of the X5 can be criticised for its lack of compliance due to its rather inflexible plastic shanked stylus.

I suspect that the original X1 cartridge was designed to be stereo compatible, but then BSR improved on it, so 'bigged up' the later model (X2 & X3) as being the latest thing in being kind to your stereo records. It still makes you wonder though, how they could ever have justified the TC8S as being a genuine stereo compatible cartridge, was it that they just didn't care or perhaps they didn't want to go to the expense of altering all the tooling from the manufacture of the old mono only TC8. As has been said, the X1 was probably a new design to replace the old TC8 (and I would add the 'S' suffix to that) and that it was using the new stereo compatible design of 'flip-under' stylus and recommended for use playing stereo records rather than the TC8S, which I seem to think was already coming under criticism due to its lack of compliance.

Last edited by Techman; 9th Nov 2022 at 8:39 pm. Reason: Added bits.
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