Smiths electric clock: dial location problems

[Nickthedentist]

Here's a problem I've had many times with both the 1930s (pre-Bijou) Smiths/SEC electric movements; the ones with the 3½" Bakelite drum and circular bezel with 6 tongues which attaches to the former with a bayonet action.

The periphery of the dial should be supported by a very shallow lip in the Bakelite drum, and be orientated correctly by a little notch at the 12 o'clock position. It's position is critical: if it sits too deep, it will foul the seconds disc and the glass will rattle. If it sits crookedly, the hands can scratch the dial. In addition, in the later version AKA the De-Luxe (pictured), rotational misalignment can cause fouling of the edgewise running indicator.

I have many such movements where the dial is a sloppy fit in the drum and can't be sat neatly on the lip, tending to drop in towards the movement at one point around the edge.

Am I doing something wrong? Has someone heavy-handed been there before me and deformed the dial? Has anyone got a solution?

Nick.

[Darren-UK]

Is the dial (and the glass) flat or convex? Also, are the hands flat or do they curve towards their extremities?

[Nickthedentist]

Hi Darren, both the dial and glass are convex, and the hands slightly curved. I've attached a pic of a typical clock using this arrangement that I found online.

All's well if the dial sits on its little ledge, but it's prone to slipping off it, taking the glass with it, and making both crooked with respect to the movement, the bezel and the Bakelite housing.

Nick.

[Nickthedentist]

Here's a close-up of the top part of the Bakelite case showing the lip and anti-rotational key more clearly.

N.

[Darren-UK]

I thought it might be convex and they can be pesky things to assemble.

Assuming your dial to be the original Smiths effort, it sounds like it's become slightly warped or someone's 'adjusted' it - probably to clear the telltale. That said, they never were a precision fit in the bakelite module.

The bezel, via the glass, is supposed to hold down the dial to keep it in position and to counter any warping which may be present with the dial. See if you can manipulate the lugs on the bezel so it's more secure when locked in position (assuming it's the type with lugs and not the type with little pips pressed into the metal).

Regarding the sloppy fit of the dial in the module, what I suggest is locating the dial in the correct position, holding it there and then applying a tiny drop of superglue at the point where the locating lug sits in the slot. That will hold it in position adequately to permit reassembly to go ahead. Make sure the superglue has dried properly before you put the glass anywhere near it, or you might get a 'frosty' patch appear on the glass.

Replacing the hands can be fiddly to get right as space between dial and glass is limited. Assuming you've been able to get the bezel to clamp down more securely, press down on the dial with two fingers at, say, the 3 and 9 positions to keep it seated down properly. Then fit the hands with their tips as close to the dial as possible, checking for adequate clearance when the hands pass each other. Then fit the glass and bezel, following which all should be well.

If for any reason you can't get the bezel to clamp down properly (for example, if it's the type with locating pips) then one solution is to cut out four little pieces of clear plastic to insert as spacers between the dial and the glass. Position them so they're hidden when the bezel is in place. Alternatively, place some spacers around the rebate in the module so the dial sits slightly raised.

Sorry if that all sounds bodgy but sometimes a bit of improvising is the only answer.

One other thing, when you've got the hands in place and are ready to locate the glass, put a drop of oil on your finger and smear it along the surface of the minute hand. Then locate the glass and press it down lightly. You'll then be able to see if the hand is touching, or is too close to, the glass thanks to capillary. Don't forget to clean the oil off again though!

[Nickthedentist]

Hi Darren,

Thanks for taking the time to give me such a detailed reply.

Originally Posted by Darren-UK

Assuming your dial to be the original Smiths effort, it sounds like it's become slightly warped or someone's 'adjusted' it - probably to clear the telltale. That said, they never were a precision fit in the bakelite module.

It's the original, and although it's branded Genalex, it's a standard Smiths/SEC dial through and through. One of the books I've got talks about "humouring" these dials and bezels, which suggests that they gave problems even when new.

Originally Posted by Darren-UK

The bezel, via the glass, is supposed to hold down the dial to keep it in position and to counter any warping which may be present with the dial. See if you can manipulate the lugs on the bezel so it's more secure when locked in position (assuming it's the type with lugs and not the type with little pips pressed into the metal).

The bezel is indeed the sort with lugs and fits very snugly indeed. If the dial didn't fall back towards the movement, all would be well!

Originally Posted by Darren-UK

Regarding the sloppy fit of the dial in the module, what I suggest is locating the dial in the correct position, holding it there and then applying a tiny drop of superglue at the point where the locating lug sits in the slot. That will hold it in position adequately to permit reassembly to go ahead.

I like the sound of that, though I don't think that would be strong enough to stop the glass forcing the dial inwards off its lip. I think I might have to extend the lip with modelling putty in that region, although of course, the putty would have to be hacked off to withdraw the movement from its housing at a later date.

Originally Posted by Darren-UK

If for any reason you can't get the bezel to clamp down properly (for example, if it's the type with locating pips) then one solution is to cut out four little pieces of clear plastic to insert as spacers between the dial and the glass. Position them so they're hidden when the bezel is in place. Alternatively, place some spacers around the rebate in the module so the dial sits slightly raised.

Not a problem in this particular clock, but I've seen others where someone's fitted a ring of wire for this exact purpose.

Originally Posted by Darren-UK

Sorry if that all sounds bodgy...

No, needs must.

Originally Posted by Darren-UK

One other thing, when you've got the hands in place and are ready to locate the glass, put a drop of oil on your finger and smear it along the surface of the minute hand. Then locate the glass and press it down lightly. You'll then be able to see if the hand is touching, or is too close to, the glass thanks to capillary. Don't forget to clean the oil off again though!

Useful tip, thanks. You can usually hear the scraping as the hand set is rotated, if its actually touching, though.
Nick.

[Darren-UK]

Genalex were indeed rebadged Smiths clocks - but not all. A small few were rebadged Ferrantis.

If your dial is such a misfit that the glass pushes it down into the module, it's just possible you might have a dial originally intended for a Ferranti. I doubt it left the factory like that though. Has it got the characteristic Smiths "Made in Gt Britain" on it below the figure 6?

Whatever, you obviously need to sort the problem of the dialameter (new word, just invented) being too small. Could you make up a thin disc, say of aluminium, to a more suiitable diameter to use as a backing plate for the dial?

Even bearing in mind all the little niggles typical of these clocks, it sounds like something is very amiss here.

Is the glass a good fit in the bezel? I did wonder if you've got the correct glass.

[Nickthedentist]

Darren,

I'm certain the dial is original: It says Genalex below the running indicator, as does the back of the Bakelite housing (where it would normally say SEC). It also says Made in England below the figure 6, which is what I presume you meant.

The dial is almost certainly the right dialameter , but fractionally distorted, so that one point on its edge always seems to give way under pressure from the bezel/glass. Not distorted by much though, but bear in mind that the lip on which it's meant to sit is less than 0.5mm deep.

The glass is a superb fit in the bezel and beautifully smooth around its edge: again, definitely original.

I'll have to give this some thought...

Nick.