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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 7:51 pm   #1
RobustReviews
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Default VHS HiFi - deterioration?

Hello all,

Sorry two threads in one day on this board, but totally unrelated.

I've been experimenting with VHS HiFi over the last few weeks (YouTube video shortly) and I've been buying cheap lots of music VHS videos because they cost buttons (or free in some cases) and I've found some of the HiFi tracks sound amazing through a decent HiFi.

Findings:
Channel 5/PMG/Polygram (All Polygram's imprints) Sound sublime and some of these tapes have been played hundreds of times. My video album of Kaleidoscope World by Swing Out Sister on VHS might be the best recording I own, and The Waiting Game is without vice in playback. All of the videos from this stable are fantastic though and sound CD quality even at high volume with little hiss and full range.

Virgin Music Videos play without issue but the sound 'sucks' like it was just very lazy mastering. They sound as if somebody had a 'dirty ferric' in the duplication suite. It's not faulty as such, just very lazy as if they just recorded for linear stereo and if it was cleaned up in HiFi recording a bit then that would do. My Kate Bush 'The Whole Story' plays fine in HiFi just with an annoying tape-hiss throughout the whole damn video.

Warner Brothers tapes are absolute cack, half of them no longer track the HiFi audio at all, whilst others have dropouts lasting seconds (or minutes) with frequent switching between linear/HiFi output so they're just annoying.

The 'Now That's What I Call Music X' VHS' are the absolute pits, the only thing I hear on the six I have in HiFi is about 3 seconds of Belinda Carlisle's Heaven Is A Place On Earth on one video...(That said, it's a clip I've watched a lot..... )

Anyway, you're not here for my review.

What I want to know though, like records/tapes/CDs did some labels put more effort in than others, is this due to tape-stock, playback frequency or is the HiFi track the first casualty of atrophy of the cassettes?

I know this is a niche subject, but wonder if anybody has any recollections from the time.

For clarity, I'm solely talking about HiFi playback, not image quality or linear audio.

Any input welcome as I'm doing a video essay on this one.

Cheers,
RR
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 8:02 pm   #2
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - Deterioation?

Of course, mass tape duplication did lead to very varied results, as with cassettes.

HiFi VHS was indeed vulnerable to mistracking, which in the worst cases would cause the playback machine to revert to the mono analogue track.

Poor mastering before tape duplication is obviously a separate issue. Some 80s music vids were pretty grim.
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 8:13 pm   #3
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - Deterioation?

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Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
Of course, mass tape duplication did lead to very varied results, as with cassettes.

HiFi VHS was indeed vulnerable to mistracking, which in the worst cases would cause the playback machine to revert to the mono analogue track.

Poor mastering before tape duplication is obviously a separate issue. Some 80s music vids were pretty grim.
I agree, I think some video masters had pretty poor audio attached, given they were for 625 mono broadcast at best or for VHS playback at worst.

I can definitely see Polygram did take good care from my sample though, it's night-and-day compared to the others. Shame I've discovered this 35 years too late.

My other suspicion is that (especially the Now That's What I Call a Video bundle) might simply be worn-out as I guess they could have been played ad-nauseam on worn out machines in a teenager's bedroom) potentially a thousand times.

A lot of these tapes are older than me, and whilst I was of the VHS generation DVD was definitely the format of choice by the time I started buying my own kit or paying attention to playback quality, hence the question as I don't want to go off on a rant and miss something I wasn't aware of at the time.

Cheers again,
RR
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 8:27 pm   #4
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - Deterioation?

HiFi VHS is essentially a digital system so it should either work or not - it shouldn't 'sound bad'. When it's failing you hear noise, with very obvious falling back to the analogue track when things get really bad.
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 8:37 pm   #5
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - Deterioation?

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Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
HiFi VHS is essentially a digital system so it should either work or not - it shouldn't 'sound bad'. When it's failing you hear noise, with very obvious falling back to the analogue track.
That's good to know, thanks for that

No switching noise or anything like detectable, just some of them sound, well, cack even tracked perfectly on the HiFi track so I'll put that down to poor mastering, they just sound dull and lifeless, almost like a slightly 'brighter' linear stereo VHS.

I guess in a very roundabout way I was asking if tape aging will deteriorate the SQ but it sounds as if it tracks and works or it switches to linear.

On the ones with dropouts/barely any detectable HiFi I guess this is a result of tape wear/aging rather than mastering faults?

Final question, and one I feel I should know the answer to (but it's tricky to pin down an answer) what does the tracking pot actually adjust? Is it micro adjustment of tape speed, gain of the tracking signal on the tape, or head position relative to the tape?

I get what 'tracking' is, and how it functions relative to video-tape, I just can't actually find a simple answer to which bit is adjusted to realign it when the pot is turned or the IC determines?

Thanks again, you've been a gent,

RR
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 8:42 pm   #6
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

Answered my own question there, amazing what a new search can do!

Apologies for the daft question, you know, I've never found a clear answer, and today about fifty searches pop up!

Cheers,
RR
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 8:44 pm   #7
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

Hi-Fi VHS audio was an F.M. system, (not a digital PCM system) and therefore can suffer degradation.
It also relied on depth modulation of the tape.

David.
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 9:08 pm   #8
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post

What I want to know though, like records/tapes/CDs did some labels put more effort in than others, is this due to tape-stock, playback frequency or is the HiFi track the first casualty of atrophy of the cassettes?

I know this is a niche subject, but wonder if anybody has any recollections from the time.

For clarity, I'm solely talking about HiFi playback, not image quality or linear audio.
Hi RR,
I've been using VHS since 1982 and in my world, it's still a perfectly current format! I never really embraced DVD and the DVD recorder I was given drives me mad trying to get it to do what I want!

In the '90's & 2000's, I recorded loads of stuff on a first generation VHS Hi Fi machine- mostly in long play. The tapes I recorded on were well worn and knackered even then and they have had much abuse since!

They still play today on a much later machine and the Hi Fi sound track has stood the abuse with very few problems. The tapes have lots of dropouts and chewed up sections which tend to cause head clogs, but it's usually one or both of the video heads that clogs rather than the hi fi heads. The Hi Fi track is very robust!

I was in the repair trade during the VHS and latterly timelapse video period and so have a profound respect for the VHS format!

I've found video heads to be remarkably robust over the years especially the later machines.

Before I graduated to a Minidisk recorder in the '90's, I used VHS-C cassettes in an adaptor as a Hi fi recording format and they worked pretty well! The audio reproduction can be excellent.

The Hi Fi audio on most of the music tapes I have is also excellent. Interesting you mention tape hiss on Kate Bush. Even the Vinyl & CD pressings of the Kick Inside have loads of tape hiss from the master tapes which thankfully they did not try to remove.

My main concern in hiring out the Panasonic machine to the un- initiated, is that the heads are bound to clog at some point. If the customer tries cleaning them you know where that will lead!

As I have said before, bringing VHS to the public was an amazing achievement and it served us well. Long may we preserve it!

Cheers
Nick
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 11:27 pm   #9
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

Another VHS fan here! I have about 60 music VHS tapes, mostly titles that never got rereleased on DVD. I don't listen to then critically (they are mainly background material). I do agree with your comments about the brands generally though, but there are exceptions both ways too.

One brand I have quite a few of that you haven't mentioned is Weinerworld. They are mostly themed compilations which mix tracks with no gaps. One example I have is all ten of the "Eighties Videostars" series (one per year) and it took a while to gather a good set. When in good condition they sound great with well balanced clear sound and no noticeable hiss etc. However I have had more than I would have expected with significant dropouts and other sound issues, as well as picture banding etc. Possible reasons are either that they used cheap materials that don't last or, because they are really good compilations, they got played a lot back in the day... or a combination of the two.

My current VCR is a Philips VR840 which is a fairly late machine, and seems to have plenty of features (mostly useless now) so was probably quite expensive in its day. It does seem to cope with iffy tapes better than my previous JVC or an Akai I had for a while.

I have copied most of my tapes (all the ones I will play regularly) to MP4 files on my media server, to minimise wear on the tapes and machine.
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 11:38 pm   #10
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - Deterioation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
HiFi VHS is essentially a digital system so it should either work or not - it shouldn't 'sound bad'. When it's failing you hear noise, with very obvious falling back to the analogue track when things get really bad.
VHS Hi-Fi is analogue, an additional FM RF carrier is laid down on top of (or should that be underneath) the video track.

I think the confusion arises because, for obvious reasons, Hi-Fi machines were also equipped with a NICAM tuner, which gave the marketing people lots of permutations of digital, Hi-Fi, stereo, NICAM etc.

I've got a Sony machine, when playing a tape with drop-outs it does momentarily lose the Hi-Fi track, but it seamlessly switches over to the linear track. So far all well and good. The problem is, when it reacquires the FM track, also seamlessly, it puts an annoying STEREO graphic on the playback picture which makes it useless to me as the A machine in an A-B dub.

Why do they do things like that, and not let you switch the feature off?
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Old 22nd Jul 2020, 11:47 pm   #11
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

One annoying problem which I think is due to bad duplication, is a feint but noticeable buzz on the hi-fi track. I suspect it is due to the hi-fi tracks being somehow slightly out of line with the hi-fi head switching point. I have yet to find a copy of "Jason Donovan Greatest Video Hits" (PWL, distributed by Warner Music) without it.
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Old 23rd Jul 2020, 12:13 am   #12
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

Just to add to my previous post, the stereo wasn't encoded on the FM carrier, there were in fact two Hi-Fi carriers.

The lower frequency compared to the video caused the magnetic flux to be laid down deeper in the oxide, avoiding crosstalk. Depth multiplexing.
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Old 23rd Jul 2020, 6:41 am   #13
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

I digitised a number of commercial VHS tapes that weren't well represented online a few years ago - mostly late 80s and early 90s CCM and Christian rock - and found that the HiFi tracks varied, but generally sounded a little "flat." I'm not sure how many duplication plants were in NZ at the time, but because of the intended market these would have been lower volume, so potentially a mix of Australian and NZ duplication. Much of the source material was from the US, so I'm not sure what kind of conversion etc happened and what generation some of these were before they hit NZ.

The only dropouts I noticed were in just one video - for example at about 0:31,
1:22, 1:47, 2:19 here. The weird thing is that from other tracks on the same source video (Reunion Records' Two x 4) were ok, and probably got more play than this one.

They did have their own issues though - this is an example of some over-enthusiastic noise gating, this one is overcompressed and seems to have lost bottom end in the music tracks, while the audio on this justs seems completely lifeless.

The best audio quality (and video for that matter) I've struck would be this which I bought from Australia. So maybe it was rubbish duplication in NZ?

I've also got some US NTSC transfers, and plenty of ones from a few more generations down - I won't subject everyone to links for those, just feel free to browse what's on my Youtube channel there's even some Stryper from 80's NZ music show Radio with Pictures, complete with some hash from a Sord computer getting in the TV2 signal on channel 3!
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Old 23rd Jul 2020, 9:53 am   #14
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

I suppose it also depends on the duplication suite. We used to look after one for a local company whch supplied mainly children's TV programmes. The equipment consisted of about 50 Mitsubishi HS57/58 hi-fi machines coupled to a player, probably Betacam. As you can imagine, these machines being domestic, albeit high-end, soon fell out of tolerance, and only came in for head replacement when the pictures were poor. As you know, the hi-fi tracks are recorded deeper into the tape, so it's more than likely the hi-fi sound would have not been playable long before the pictures became unwatchable. Of course the names mentioned above would probably have had better specified equipment, but the state of the recorder's heads and alignment would still have affected the performance.
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Old 23rd Jul 2020, 6:18 pm   #15
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

Having quite a large collection of music videos, I agree that there are vast differences in sound quality, but some machines play better than others!
This may be down to how many hours are on the heads, or how much use the tape has seen,

Back in the 80's, I used to record CD's to VHS HI-FI, the quality was a rival to open reel decks, in fact the tapes still play flawlessly 35 years later.

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Old 24th Jul 2020, 12:30 am   #16
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

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Originally Posted by Paul Stenning View Post
My current VCR is a Philips VR840 which is a fairly late machine, and seems to have plenty of features (mostly useless now) so was probably quite expensive in its day. It does seem to cope with iffy tapes better than my previous JVC or an Akai I had for a while.
That's already a cheap Funai model, but you're right: as long as they work, they give a good picture even on iffy tapes.
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Old 24th Jul 2020, 10:53 am   #17
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

Horrible system, really - if it weren't for the 2:1 dbx the switching noise would be completely unendurable as opposed to merely irritating.
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Old 24th Jul 2020, 11:03 am   #18
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

Maybe, but when it works properly, the improvement over linear soundtracks is stunning, a bit like comparing live FM radio with a recording done on a “shoebox” recorder.
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Old 24th Jul 2020, 1:20 pm   #19
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

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Horrible system, really - if it weren't for the 2:1 dbx the switching noise would be completely unendurable as opposed to merely irritating.
I've found lots of remarks about the switching noise online but on the two decks I've been experimenting with there's no switching noise I can hear by ear nor see analyzing digital samples. I appreciate switching IS taking place but it seems very neatly obfuscated on the examples I have.

I do smile at several remarks I've read online (not here) that it's "not HiFi" due to the switching noise BUT pops, dust, clicks and hiss ARE HiFi? There seems to be a contigent of tape-heads and vinyl fans who knocked this system at the time because of switching noise and compending but hissy tape and crackly vinyl "adds analogue character", I think I'll take a squeeky clean compended recording over a hissy metal tape any day.



To my ears, and my ears alone, it sounds very very good.
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Old 24th Jul 2020, 1:48 pm   #20
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Default Re: VHS HiFi - deterioration?

The devil, as ever, is in the detail - inter-machine compatibility and care (or lack of it) in commercial duplication combine to impair quality in the field. The switching noise, being continuous and edgy, is more annoying than the raw figures would suggest. It's higher fi than the linear track, granted, and as sound for picture, where the visual sense dominates, it's all right, but that's about it.
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