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Old 11th May 2020, 7:45 am   #21
trh01uk
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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Quote:
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A good idea. Now we just need someone to organise it!
Did I hear Richard just volunteer?

Martin

Sorry - no. I've already done a considerable stint starting out as a founder member of VMARS in 1999 - and that didn't end well.

My comment was just an observation that this field would be much improved with co-operation - but for whatever reason, those attracted to this field do not do co-operation well. (With of course notable individual exceptions, that can be witnessed from time to time on this forum!)

Richard
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Old 11th May 2020, 8:49 am   #22
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

The more I think about this, the less viable it sounds. Unless there's some money in it, for which read a market, for which read enough people wanting that bit in a small enough time window, no professional (by which I mean paid) concern is going to touch it. That leaves the backwoodsman in his workshop, of which, fortunately, there are still a few, doing one-offs or small batches for those prepared to pay. I'd love to see tape heads back in production, but don't think for a moment it's going to happen unless a lot of money is put in upfront for plant and expertise, which itself will soon be in short supply. And, being truthful, just what is the success rate of generally available 3D printing in producing anything close to original quality? Not very high, I think.

As an example, I have a nice Textronix 'scope which has a broken knob skirt. I have the bit, so could glue it back, or I could look for a used replacement in the usual places. Or I could organise re-manufacture, making the brass insert, sourcing the plastic mixes, making the moulds, making the parts, engraving the skirt, assembling the whole...for a market of...two? three? ten?

Sorry guys, dream on...
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Old 11th May 2020, 9:47 am   #23
Craig Sawyers
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

The thing that is missed in the audio community who insist on NOS valves that cost an arm and a leg, is that most NOS valves (originally made in the 40's and 50's) available now were in fact rejects. Hence some of the mystery of why some sound better than others is revealed.
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Old 11th May 2020, 10:03 am   #24
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

I needed to get some metal pulley wheel's made to replace a common failing plastic version. I was pleased to find a small local engineering firm,that could reproduce them from a pencil drawing and the broken parts of an original only!

Understandably ,they needed a minimum order number to make it worth them setting up the machinery, so I thought OK, I'll just sell the spare ones to other enthusiasts and keep some back for stock.

They proved to be very popular,and I ended up ordering more to satisfy demand, but it took up a lot of time. While most people were delighted to be able to buy the part to get a treasured machine "back on the road",some carped about the cost, despite me explaining that they were sold at cost, simply to recoup my outlay.

As others have pointed out, supply and demand are interdependent and you can't realistically expect anyone to make something here at "far eastern" prices?
3D copying machinery is still relatively expensive too ,but becoming more attainable.
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Old 11th May 2020, 10:18 am   #25
Craig Sawyers
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

I had the same problem with Tektronix blue spray paint, for restoring cabinets. I had a batch made - correct colour and matt-ness - and had exactly the same problem of carping about price. I ended up with more than half the batch unsold, and have been progressively working though it restoring my own Tek stable.

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Old 11th May 2020, 10:38 am   #26
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

I'm afraid my response to anyone carping about the cost would be short and sweet - 'take it or leave it, nobody is forcing you to buy'.

Andy
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Old 11th May 2020, 11:54 am   #27
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

If you give things away for free, there is always be a small number of people who carp about the cost of postage.

I once had the job of finding a home for approx 47,000 brand spanking new premium grade RF transistors. If you bought them in singles from RS they were a fiver a pop. It was a lifebuy being dumped. A big box of 5000 went to the US, another to Russia, boxes of 500 went to clubs all over the place.

You'd have thought with that many, every QRP transmitter built or appearing in the magazines would use one or two. Nope. I haven't come across a single trace of any coming to light at all. They must all have gone into many people's stashes never to be used. "Yes, I'll take a couple of handfuls" people making sure they would have several lifetimes worth.

I'd agreed that they would not be sold, they were to be given free and they were. Dealers offered me money. But instead, at that price, the first people quickly decided that they wanted an infinite quantity.

They didn't get shared round at all well.

I'm afraid the Ooooh! Shiny! syndrome took hold.

Even with a huge quantity available to give away for free, greed rears its ugly head and it all goes per-shaped.

I don't expect it'll ever happen again, but next time maybe the landfill will win.

David
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Old 11th May 2020, 1:23 pm   #28
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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... most NOS valves (originally made in the 40's and 50's) available now were in fact rejects ...
I'm not sure whether it's possible to be quantitative (i.e. 'most' is more than half) but there are certainly examples of first-rate NOS stuff out there. I know of at least one commercial dealer who bought industrial and military disposal stock in the 70's and 80's in large quantities. What little NOS stuff I have myself came from a university department disposal quite a few years ago, along with a rather larger quantity of carefully tested 'pulls'.

Cheers,

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Old 11th May 2020, 4:47 pm   #29
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

There *can* be a market for remanufactured parts: a friend's son was doing his 'manufacturing technology' degree .. His Dad's Lotus race-car suffered a not-exactly-uncommon failure of a part which has long since been obsolete.

"Here, Son - any chance you could take a look at this?"

Son took the failed part into Uni, spent a couple of days looking at the original spec, then scanning/probing the original part and doing a bit of programming - and out popped a Titanium replacement that was to tighter-than-original tolerances.

"Word got round" in the community and after a month or two he had 70 orders - at £1500+VAT - from other owners with similar issues.

He formed a company, fulfilled the orders, wrote up the whole thing as his thesis, got a 1st, and used the profits to pay-off his student-loan.

Don't say it can't be done.
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Old 11th May 2020, 5:03 pm   #30
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Oh it definitely can be done but you talking the difference between a £30 radio and a classic sports car.

As I posted earlier it is being done by Ben.

The investment in time alone has to be considered even if your doing it just for the love of it.

But at the end of the day you have to get back some of your financial investment unless you're minted of course.

Cheers

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Old 11th May 2020, 6:16 pm   #31
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

A very interesting thread.
In the late 1990`s a good friend and radio collector used to manufacture radio knobs in his garden shed.
He made proper moulds for all the hard to find knobs and he must have cast hundreds of them.
Because I worked in engineering at the time , I got asked to drill the holes up the middle and drill and tap the hole for the grub screw.
I used to do this in my lunch break on a lathe.
The finished knobs were very good quality but a lot of time was spent making them and the resin and moulding rubber were not cheap.
My friend got quite evolved in also making radio dials , back covers and the chrome bars that fit on the round ekco`s.
For a time he enjoyed doing this but think he got fed up with it in the end.
I also think he was doing it for the love of it rather than a money making exercise.

Robin
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Old 11th May 2020, 6:23 pm   #32
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Something I've often wondered about is whether an obsolete item might nevertheless be covered by an "unexpired" patent that producing a copy would infringe. So, does "obsolete" mean that intellectual property rights no longer apply?

Mike
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Old 11th May 2020, 10:22 pm   #33
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

There is the fellow in Czechoslovakia who's started making Nixies again. There is a video on his site, detailing how he got up and running. He now has a decent business, with a handful of staff. However, he has put many years into it.

In the classic studio gear world, there are a few examples of remade parts, where moulds have been made and highly authentic replicas came about. However, in order to make a living from it, you need to take a very long term view - and risk a lot of capital in the process. It might take years to recoup tooling on one part. But what if you have hundreds of parts, and look at it long term? People have done it, to the point where they could almost be said to have monopolies. But their model is probably the only way to do it if you are not working as a charity.
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Old 11th May 2020, 11:27 pm   #34
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

I'm surprised no one has started remaking EM34's. Or for that matter EM80 and EM81's

Another hard to find part is the capstan motor for Teac Reel to Reel tape recorders.
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Old 12th May 2020, 4:25 pm   #35
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

With television collectors , one of the big problems is the rubber mask that fits around the crt.
Knowing how my friend used to make knobs , I`m sure it is possible to make these but trouble is there are many different types and I bet they would be expensive to make.
The other big problem is cathode ray tubes.
We all know that Mazda's ( CRM92 ) are well known for going gassy and that's it`s hard to find a good one and even a NOS one can be gassy.
In recent years I`ve found a few gassy mullards which I regard as the best crt`s and I wouldn't be surprised if in another 30-40 years non of the early one`s will be any good , so how do we keep our old tv`s going.
All the crt rebuilding plants have closed down and the only hope we have is the ETF in America who purchased a lot of RACS equipment and set up a crt rebuilding facility.
Only trouble is they don't have enough work to employ someone full time or that's how things stood a year or so ago.
The problem with crt`s is a very serious one if younger collectors are going to keep the hobby going and hopefully there will be enough demand in the future for the ETF to employ someone full time.

Robin
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Old 12th May 2020, 4:41 pm   #36
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

ISTR when RACS were still going a tube rebuild was around £500 and that was a few years ago.

A bargain for a pre-war tube but for a typical 50's 17" tube ouch!

And that is the problem with low volume specialist work.

Shipping a tube back and forward to the states would also be costly.

Do we know how many and at what cost ETF would become viable?

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Old 12th May 2020, 4:48 pm   #37
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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What happened to the company that was going to re-manufacture Mullard valves using the original production equipment?
Mullard brand belongs to American company (new sensor ?) Together with sovtek, tung-sol. And few more, company is American but factory is in Russia
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Old 12th May 2020, 5:24 pm   #38
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Patents only last for 20 years max if all the annual renewal fees are paid (some pharmaceutical products can get longer protection), but in any event, patents cannot be enforced against private individuals who are making things for private, non-commercial use. So you only need to worry about patents (and design right, trade marks etc.), if doing things commercially.

You can find out when a patent's last renewal fee was paid from the UK Patent Office (now called the IPO) web site, but in some circumstances, lapsed patents can be restored for up to about 2 years after lapsing.

Last edited by emeritus; 12th May 2020 at 5:46 pm.
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Old 12th May 2020, 6:08 pm   #39
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Hi Mike
I do seem to remember the price of a rebuild was loosely speculated at about the same as RACS but this was some 3-4 years ago.
I`ve just visited the ETF web site and the management team have decided the museum will not be rebuilding any crt`s for the foreseeable future but nick Williams who went over to RACS while they were still going to learn the job is setting up a crt rebuilding workshop at his home and when he retires from the navy in august is hoping to start rebuilding crt`s.
When RACS and Hawkeye closed nick purchased all the necessary equipment to set up his own crt rebuilding plant.
He says there is still a lot of work to do before any production starts but is very hopeful.

Robin
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Old 12th May 2020, 6:23 pm   #40
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

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Originally Posted by emeritus View Post
Patents only last for 20 years max if all the annual renewal fees are paid (some pharmaceutical products can get longer protection), but in any event, patents cannot be enforced against private individuals who are making things for private, non-commercial use. So you only need to worry about patents (and design right, trade marks etc.), if doing things commercially.

You can find out when a patent's last renewal fee was paid from the UK Patent Office (now called the IPO) web site, but in some circumstances, lapsed patents can be restored for up to about 2 years after lapsing.
Thanks - that's good news! I didn't realise that the patent period was as short as 20 years. Also, didn't realise that "non-commercial" copying was exempt.

But presumably it could mean that people copying parts (e.g. 3-D printing) subject to a "live" patent and trying to recoup their costs by offering copies for sale to others could get into trouble, even if the OEM was no longer making the part but had kept up with annual re-registration..

Mike
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