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Old 30th Jun 2017, 4:00 pm   #41
thermionic
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Hi Nick.

I think I would have waited to get a raster showing before I tried rejuvenating the CRT. In my experience, the 467 can be a bit stingy on its emission readings with old monochrome tubes. As you have given it a couple of 'blasts', this can actually cause more damage IMHO. The emission you have restored may not last too long now. I hope I'm wrong!

Sorry, I don't mean to be another prophet of doom! Good luck, keep at it and I'm sure soon you'll have a picture.

You may be surprised that the set will happily tolerate the majority of those slightly high resistances, I would endeavour to get something on the screen before changing them.

Cheers. SimonT
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Old 30th Jun 2017, 7:24 pm   #42
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

I really must agree with Simon. With a receiver such as this one it is very easy to apply some mains and maybe replace the boost cap and see what you have. probably a visual mess but you can quickly assess the LOPT and CRT.

Watch what you are doing with these so called tube reactivators. They usually blast the cathode to death giving a good result for maybe only a few hours. In my opinion 99% of them do more damage than good. Just a word of warning. The AW47-91 is very reliable and very rarely requires a boost. Good luck with it but watch the double sided print.

My method is to work from the top applying the soldering iron to the component leg close to the board. When the solder bubbles, gently release the component from the board. You can then either use a solder mop to clear the holes or reverse the first process finally flowing a small amount of solder around the new components legs.

This is difficult to explain and there is a 'Knack' to it. Regards, John.
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Old 30th Jun 2017, 7:36 pm   #43
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatercathodeshort View Post
Good luck with it but watch the double sided print.

My method is to work from the top applying the soldering iron to the component leg close to the board. When the solder bubbles, gently release the component from the board. You can then either use a solder mop to clear the holes or reverse the first process finally flowing a small amount of solder around the new components legs.

This is difficult to explain and there is a 'Knack' to it. Regards, John.
My method for clearing plated-through holes in PCBs (done literally thns of thousands on classic computers) is to melt the solder with the iron on one side of the board and suck with a solder sucker (one of those hand-held spring-loaded pumps, you know the thing) from the other side of the board.

Never had any problems doing it that way, even on old and delicate PCBs.
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Old 30th Jun 2017, 10:01 pm   #44
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by thermionic View Post
I think I would have waited to get a raster showing before I tried rejuvenating the CRT. In my experience, the 467 can be a bit stingy on its emission readings with old monochrome tubes. As you have given it a couple of 'blasts', this can actually cause more damage IMHO. The emission you have restored may not last too long now. I hope I'm wrong!

You may be surprised that the set will happily tolerate the majority of those slightly high resistances, I would endeavour to get something on the screen before changing them.
Hi Simon,
I don't doubt you are probably right- waiting until I had got the set working would have made more sense! However with an emission reading of the best part of zero I doubt if I would have got much on the screen. I've had good success over the years with my home built rejuvinator- granted mainly with '70s colour tubes but also with B&W ones as well. You can't sell bargain basement ex rentals without one
Rather ironically, years after I left the 'trade' I obtained the B&K so its a bit of a luxury for me.
I have used the 'power it up and take cover' method of repair for old TV's in the past and realised after a while that I ended up changing nearly all the caps anyway. With restricted access such as the pcb's on this set, it seemed to make more sense to change as many obviously faulty components with the boards on the bench. I am sure there will still be plenty of proper fault finding to do once the set is powered up
Strangely enough, the only Dubillier capacitor to show no leakage was the boost cap!! Although it could just be open circuit I suppose!!
I expect most things will work fine with the out of tolerance resistors- I'm not planning to change any at this stage.
Fingers crossed for the LOPT and the CRT but I don't hold out much hope for either
Cheers
Nick
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Old 1st Jul 2017, 11:03 am   #45
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Hi a lovely looking set. I have an early GEC version without UHF tuner but it's not such a nice looking set as your example. My LOPT overwind has a crack the set does work but the width comes in after a short run. I shall probably have to fit a tripler.

I also found the B&K tube tester reads woefully low emission on mono tubes which are only a bit down.
I did a bit of a test on the B&k. I tested a 20" tube that I knew was excellent the reading was just on the edge of the green. then I tested a tube which was a bit soft, defocussing at the edges of the picture but still bright. This read almost no emission.
I always get a picture first and asses the tube from there.
I found mono and delta colour tubes boosted well with a bulb bopper providing they hadn't been previously boosted with a commercial machine.
Some old mono and delta colour sets I had out on rent were boosted with a home made bulb bopper they lasted years mostly outlasting the sets useful life.
Sometimes a CRT which has not been used for years will pick up no end once run for couple of hours. I do this at full brightness to speed up the recovery.
The only tube I have boosted in recent years is in a Rank A774. It was defocussing and going negative when the brightness was advanced. (This one did not get much better with a run) The B&K reading was almost nothing. I bopped it with a bulb bopper and the picture came back perfect. Emission reading then rose to the edge of the green.
So on my B&k a good tube reads just into the green a low(ish) tube reads almost nothing.
I fired up the A774 recently, the tube is still as good as when first boosted which is now over a year ago.

Rich.
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Old 1st Jul 2017, 8:49 pm   #46
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

My B&K 467 also gives a low reading on mono CRT's, I mainly use my B&K 470 now as the readings are far more accurate.

I have used the 'Clean & balance' on the 470 with good results, it is a far more gentle process than the rejuvenate setting.
I personally would rather put up with a dim picture than risk killing the CRT completely!

Mark
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Old 1st Jul 2017, 9:31 pm   #47
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by slidertogrid View Post
Hi a lovely looking set. I have an early GEC version without UHF tuner but it's not such a nice looking set as your example. My LOPT overwind has a crack the set does work but the width comes in after a short run. I shall probably have to fit a tripler.

I also found the B&K tube tester reads woefully low emission on mono tubes which are only a bit down.
I did a bit of a test on the B&k. I tested a 20" tube that I knew was excellent the reading was just on the edge of the green. then I tested a tube which was a bit soft, defocussing at the edges of the picture but still bright. This read almost no emission.
Hi Rich & Mark,
Thank you for your comments. Personally, I find this set very appealing: I think the Sobell version looks even better and I will continue to search for one. I have given the cabinet a good clean and it has come up very well. I just need to give the top a bit of a flatting to get rid of some heavy scratches and then a good polish. The plastic tube cover has some bad scuffs and deep scratches and will take some work to sort out.
The comments about the B&K 467 are very interesting and have been observed by several people. I suppose I got used to the emission readings on my home made rejuvinator over the years and just assumed the B&K would be even better. I still have the remnants of my old one so maybe I should resurrect it and make some comparisons.
I agree it would have made far more sense to wait and see what the picture was like before leaping in with both feet- I'll be a bit more cautious in future!!
All the best
Nick
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Old 2nd Jul 2017, 7:38 am   #48
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

That's all part of the learning process, Nick. Sometimes our enthusiasm for a project can be damaging ( if that makes any sense) .

Personally, like many TV enthusiasts here, it's all about getting something on the screen first - top priority. Then, the faults will be displayed and appropriate fault finding can begin.

In my opinion, testing the CRT, LOPT, etc before powering up can lead you into a false sense of expectation. Like your flat tube and cracked LOPT, in your mind they are already faulty, whereas you may be surprised to find they will work!

I'm following you progress with interest!


Good luck!



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Old 5th Jul 2017, 9:28 am   #49
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Quote:
Personally, like many TV enthusiasts here, it's all about getting something on the screen first - top priority. Then, the faults will be displayed and appropriate fault finding can begin.

In my opinion, testing the CRT, LOPT, etc before powering up can lead you into a false sense of expectation. Like your flat tube and cracked LOPT, in your mind they are already faulty, whereas you may be surprised to find they will work!
Hi Simon,
I Guess there are a number of different approaches to resurrecting a TV that has not seen power for 40 years and of course the eternal question of repair versus restoration.
This set had a good layer of pungent smelling black dust and fluff but had the potential to clean up very nicely. I would much rather get all that out the way first so a major strip down makes that much easier. It's also very informative about the construction of the set.
I am also not a fan of contorting myself into odd shapes to change components on inaccessible PCB's- I would much rather work on a board on the bench where I can see everything I then work through the board, following the circuit, testing and replacing components that are very likely to be faulty such as high value resistors, Hunts caps etc.
Again, I would much rather do all that in one go. I can also check things like the system switch and the continuity of the pots.
I like to know if the LOPT is likely to work or not so I had been doing some 'ringing' experiments with different transformers to try and ascertain this. For me, these things make a project interesting and increase my knowledge.
I also think testing a CRT is useful beforehand to find out if it is likely to give a usable picture. I agree that rejuvinating it at this stage is probably not a great idea though.
Don't worry, there will still be plenty of proper fault finding for me to do once it's all back together!
So there you go, that's my preferred method, but I accept that other methods are available!!
All the best
Nick
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Old 12th Jul 2017, 9:58 pm   #50
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Good evening,
Well, I have now tested (and replaced where necessary) all the caps on all three pcb's. I tested them with a 'Megger' at either 250, 500 or 1000V depending on their voltage rating and if they passed that, tested their capacitance with a cheap tester. They fell distinctly into two camps. The Hunts and Dubilliers were all very leaky between 500K and 2Meg and the 'Mustards' all measured over 200 Meg and the capacitance was spot on. I don't doubt some of the leaky ones would have worked to some extent but would have resulted in frame cramping etc so I would have changed them in the end anyway!

The electrolytics fared rather better. I powered these at their rated voltage and measured the leakage current. After 1/2 hr or so, all bar one was down to 100 microamps and the values were also spot on.

I 'reformed' the 4 main electrolytics by running them from a current limited 300V supply. After an hour or so, leakage was down to 100 microamps. Two of them are a bit low in value but at least they won't blow themselves to bits when I apply power!

The LOPT has been warmed up to give it the best chance of survival should it decide to work at all!! I passed a current through the overwind so that it got fairly warm but not too hot. I left it on overnight and then did the same to the primary winding.

So I have now done pretty much everything that I wanted to and so the exciting part is approaching!! It just remains to wire the PCB's back to the chassis and refit the LOPT. Talking of which, between the two top caps (ie across the primary winding) there is a capacitor and resistor in series. The resistor is O/C and is too discoloured to make out its value. Some versions of the circuit list it as 18K and others as 1.8K. Does anyone know which is correct?

I am camping in the New Forest at the moment en route to the Island and have brought the GEC and portable workshop with me. I also have the 23" Regentone from 'Colourstar' which is still on the back seat since RWB I don't suppose there are many people who take two dual standard TV's on a camping trip Pity I didn't bring an inverter- I could have sat and watched one of them!!
All the best
Nick
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Old 13th Jul 2017, 7:24 pm   #51
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

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Originally Posted by 1100 man View Post
I am camping in the New Forest at the moment en route to the Island and have brought the GEC and portable workshop with me.
Now that is dedication.....

Steve
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Old 19th Jul 2017, 12:26 am   #52
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Good evening,
Well finally I've got to the point of applying power!! At least as I had replaced all the obviously dodgy caps, checked everything else, reformed the main smoothing caps and dried out the line transformer, I was fairly confident that nothing would catch light when I switched on

I was greeted with the nice 'crinkley' sound as the valves warmed up for the first time in 40 years, then a steady plume of smoke from the dropper as the dust burnt off. Wait a bit and then the purr of the frame output transformer and hum from the speaker. Then a healthy line whistle and much to my amazement, as I wasn't expecting much from the LOPT, the EHT rectifier's heater was lit So the transformer was probably ok as if there are shorted turns, there isn't enough energy to light the heater.
Not much on the screen but as I turned the brightness up a faint raster momentarily appeared. Hmm, odd. I then noticed the EHT cap dangling down behind the line transformer... Pillock!!

With that connected, a very respectable, bright raster appeared on both 625 & 405- the frame looked pretty linear too.
Touching the output of the VHF tuner produced lots of interference on the screen but I couldn't get anything out of the UHF one. I changed the tuner valves and bingo, we had a picture!!
By this time, the height had reduced to about half the screen. I measured some voltages and found the anode of the oscillator was down to 20 V. The anode resistors were ok so I changed the valve and that cured the problem!
So I now have a very good test pattern but with no horizontal sync. Vertical is fine so the problem is in the flywheel circuit which will be my next port of call.
After 1/2 hr or so, the line transformer was still only mildly warm and everything seemed happy. So it would seem that heating the transformer up overnight with a power supply is beneficial after all. Thanks to Fernseh for the suggestion!!

So far then, a very satisfactory result
It was very hard to photograph the screen- how do others manage to not get half the screen blanked out by the camera? The actual picture on the screen looks better then the photo's.
So the next stage is to tackle the sync fault- my first suspects are the two diodes.
All the best
Nick
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Old 19th Jul 2017, 10:00 am   #53
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Wow, that's looking good. Well done on your progress so far. As for the lack of sync I had something similar caused by the system switch contacts not quite making but recall the vertical sync was affected too. Worth a check all the same.

Looking forward to hearing more.
Cheers
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Old 20th Jul 2017, 10:39 am   #54
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Thanks Brian,
While I was overhauling the two PCB's on the bench, I gave the system switch a good clean knowing this could cause all sorts of problems. The contacts are silver plated and had gone a bit black but cleaned up well. They all tested good for continuity.
Well the lack of sync was a bit silly A few quick checks showed there was no line pulse getting to the flywheel diodes, the reason was the wire had fallen off the LOPT Dodgy soldering- surely not
I now have a very good test pattern on 625 lines. The height and frame hold are one ended due to out of tolerance resistors but that's easily sorted.
If I could work out how to photograph the screen, I would post some pictures. The shutter speed (if you have such things on digital cameras) is too fast so it only captures a part of the screen. I have no idea how to get round that.
Next thing will be to dig out a DVD player and feed in some proper pictures!!
Cheers
Nick
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Old 20th Jul 2017, 12:09 pm   #55
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Pleased it was an easy repair. Presumably you're using a digital camera? Might be worth checking the settings to see if it can be altered. I tend to use my phone nowadays. Would make a good topic but will say no more to prevent this excellent thread from going off topic.

The boost supply feed resistor to the frame output stage often changes value causing lack of height.

Cheers
Brian
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Old 20th Jul 2017, 2:11 pm   #56
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

A nice job Nick.
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 12:27 am   #57
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

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The boost supply feed resistor to the frame output stage often changes value causing lack of height.
I measured all the resistors on the PCB's when they were on the bench and the best of them were 20% high and the rest about 30-50% The presets were 20% low!! So far this has caused remarkably few problems. The boost feed should be 1.2meg and measures 1.7meg. However, there is a VDR to stabilise the supply to the frame stage which does a remarkably good job and so the value of the resistor doesn't seem to make much difference.

I really do have to commend the designers on their EHT regulation and timebase stabilisation. Varying the brightness rapidly from max to min causes absolutely no change in picture size whatsoever!!
In fact I now have a really good picture on 625. The scan coils have completely disintegrated and are a mass of crumbling plastic so I can't adjust the linearity sleeve or magnets properly. Despite that, linearity and picture geometry in both directions is excellent and there is minimal 'ringing' from the line timebase.

The tube ,after it's boosting is excellent and gives a nice contrasty picture with good focus. Even the LOPT is behaving itself and is not getting excessively hot. (for how long is anyone's guess!)
There are still plenty of minor issues to address but I'm pleased with the results so far.
I've just watched an episode of 'Porridge' on it and managed to get a few pictures and also a few of my testcard dvd. I had to turn the brightness and contrast well down to fool the camera so the photo's are nowhere near as good as the real picture.
I'll start investigating the 405 side of things when I can find the power plug for the standards converter!!
All the best
Nick
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Old 21st Jul 2017, 4:07 am   #58
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Regarding photographing the screen, do you have an iPhone? Even an older one. Don't know why but they are very good at taking screen pics without blanking. You can pic older ones up dirt cheep, you don't even need to put simm in it just use it as a camera.
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Old 23rd Jul 2017, 12:13 am   #59
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

Hmm. I'll need to sort something out as the screenshots really don't do the picture justice. No I haven't got an Iphone but that may be the way to go.

I have now managed to get a pretty good test card on 405. Being conscious of the health of the LOPT, I measured it's temperature after it had been on for half an hour or so (with a finger after it was switched off!!) To my great surprise is was only mildly warm whereas on 625 it was significantly hotter after the same period.
Does anyone have any ideas why this might be? I have never done a comparison between 405 & 625 before so don't know if this is usual or not. It would be nice to make it run as cool on 625 but I don't know if there is anything I can do about it.

So the remaining things I wish to do are as follows:
1) Rebuild scancoils. All the plastic has disintegrated so I plan to use the plastic bits from a similar set of coils and the linearity sleeve.
2) Slight adjustment to If stages. At optimum picture there is no sound.
3) The sound is grim and quite distorted. I am not sure the speaker is helping but is not entirely to blame.
4) Seal the LOPT overwind (it has cracks in the plastic encapsulation) to prevent moisture ingress over the winter.
5) Reduce the time constant of the flywheel sync circuit to make it work with VHS video. (I'm not a fan of DVD) It's not too bad but there is room for improvement.
6) There are a lot of nasty scuffs and scores on the plastic CRT implosion cover which I want to polish out and a few bits of damage on the case which need attention.

Here are a few pictures of testcard c from the Aurora. I'll post some pictures of the set when it's finished and back in it's case.
I would be interested in people's ideas about the LOPT temperature so please feel free to comment.

All the best
Nick
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Old 23rd Jul 2017, 9:59 am   #60
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Default Re: Nearly a Sobell 1000 DST!!

The boost voltage will of course have been checked and within the range specified in the manual. Personally speaking I prefer to set it towards the lower end if full width is maintained in the interest of preserving the LOPT. I was shouted down on another forum for suggesting that once but is my own opinion.

I had the reverse problem with the Philips G6 I had. The LOPT would become mildly warm on 625 yet would become quite hot on 405. Don't know why this is, perhaps others may want to comment?

Poor sound is a common fault on this series of sets, in fact my 13" 2015 suffers from the same problem.
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