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Old 22nd Feb 2020, 5:32 pm   #1
Junk Box Nick
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Default BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Just a quick 'heads up':

At 7pm this evening Dr Hannah Fry presents a repeat of a three hour special using archive recordings on codes and codebreakers.

I heard it this morning at 9am. First up was an programme about the 'Numbers' stations. Although made some years ago I'd not heard it before and it made fascinating listening - especially, as for many of us, these stations were familiar to me on my general coverage short wave sets.

Later in the programme there's an archive programme about the girls who worked at Bletchley Park and those who were secret listeners in WWII.
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Old 22nd Feb 2020, 5:55 pm   #2
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

I heard some of it this morning, very good and the bonus is Hannah, lovely voice. I will listen to the whole thing tonight.
 
Old 22nd Feb 2020, 7:35 pm   #3
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

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Originally Posted by Junk Box Nick View Post
First up was an programme about the 'Numbers' stations. Although made some years ago I'd not heard it before and it made fascinating listening
I imagine that was "Tracking the Lincolnshire Poacher" made in 2004.

I saw that as a pivotal moment. Remember it's illegal* to listen to, and particularly to pass on to a third party, the details of any message you hear other than licenced broadcast & amateur stations, and here was the BBC, arguably an arm of the state, making a programme about number stations!

* Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 s48
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Old 22nd Feb 2020, 9:16 pm   #4
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

True enough Graham but it made little sense then and vanishes in the complexities of modern modes of communication. The point was made on Question time [BBC1 Thursday] that license payers can't access programs when abroad never mind those who are intended to be excluded Not exactly illegal for those who do pay perhaps but inaccessible all the same. I heard that Number Stations program first time around. It's very good but there have been other others on Radio 4.

I'm sure you will remember that the BBC used get "heavy" re legal action about home recording from time to time, fairly erratically and with no discernable result. Cassettes and "Mix-Tapes" probably sorted that one for good in the end. Now the Archive Unit advertises for home recordings of programs they haven't got, didn't record, lost or used as filler material during studio reconstructions to process through the wonderful 4xtra! The most recent example is probably the Manchester Oxford Road output from the nineties. A lot of the Mark Radcliffe shows [from the basement] seem to have been binned for example. I've got one or two of course.

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Last edited by AC/HL; 23rd Feb 2020 at 1:56 am. Reason: OT aside edited
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 12:22 pm   #5
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

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I saw that as a pivotal moment. Remember it's illegal* to listen to, and particularly to pass on to a third party, the details of any message you hear other than licenced broadcast & amateur stations, and here was the BBC, arguably an arm of the state, making a programme about number stations!
The BBC isn't an arm of the state, it's an independent corporation, so far.
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 12:29 pm   #6
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

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Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
I'm sure you will remember that the BBC used get "heavy" re legal action about home recording from time to time, fairly erratically and with no discernable result. Cassettes and "Mix-Tapes" probably sorted that one for good in the end. Now the Archive Unit advertises for home recordings of programs they haven't got, didn't record, lost or used as filler material during studio reconstructions to process through the wonderful 4xtra! The most recent example is probably the Manchester Oxford Road output from the nineties. A lot of the Mark Radcliffe shows [from the basement] seem to have been binned for example. I've got one or two of course.
I don't remember the BBC "getting heavy" about home recording. It was the record companies who campaigned against it to the extent of printing warnings on the inner sleeves of their LPs : "Home taping is killing the music industry" is one I remember.
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 12:44 pm   #7
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

I have a recording of a BBC Radio 1 programme circa late 1969 of 1950's rock and roll records where the rather enthusiastic DJ introduced the first record by saying what a lot of good stuff he had lined up, and then said "tape it! ... no, don't tape it, I've just had a word from my producer! ".
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 1:00 pm   #8
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Not sure what relevance any of this has to numbers stations, although records back then were sometimes colloquially referred to as a "new number by xxx".

This programme may still be available on line somewhere.
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 1:48 pm   #9
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

The 'Numbers' programme will be available on the BBC Sounds/player whatever they call it now. Radio 4 Extra 22 Feb 9am and 7pm. The whole thing runs for three hours but the 'Numbers' programme is first up and lasts about 30 mins starting about 5 mins in. The discussions between the segments are also interesting.
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 2:06 pm   #10
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Thanks to this forum I recorded it all last night.
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 3:27 pm   #11
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

I think it may well be that the BBC was getting nervous as usual and responding to the Record Companies at that time but they did issue some ambiguous warnings directly and though news media. I'd assumed that they were talking about their own recordings but then they lost a great deal of what they had and took a very long time to realise the value of the music archive in particular. I think this was all institutional. The people who set things up and put out the programs at the beginning seemed to regard television or even radio as inferior and transient-a "hear" today and gone tomorrow medium like newspapers and photographs not an Art Form.

That attitude set the tone and went on far too long. I was watching the original Quatermass Experiment series the other day [again]. Quaint looking now perhaps but but a national sensation at the time. Only two of the four episodes remain.i In terms of numbers and code breaking a decision was made to destroy all the Bletchley Machinery after the war. I can understand the security concerns at the time [sort of] but it would have been great if they'd just put it in safe storage. We seem to have the very opposite attitude regarding 5G at the moment.

Dave W
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 4:46 pm   #12
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

I thought the link between trying to stop people "listening In", Bill and home taping was that it's pretty futile in both instances whether you invoke the law or not. Except maybe in war time but people defied the Nazis even then, risking their lives. Just this weekend there's a plan to "police" what we burn in the grate

What used to infuriate me was the deliberate [or ignorant] conflating of bootlegging for home us [encouraged in France] with counterfeiting, the latter being definitely against the law especially if you had warehouse full of shiny reproductions of a commercial product.

Dave
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 5:09 pm   #13
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

I recall that the french-language instructions in the manual of my Philips EL3302 said it was permissible to make recordings for personal domestic use, and cited the relevant sections of the French civil code. I don't recall seeing this information in any other instruction manuals.

Last edited by emeritus; 23rd Feb 2020 at 5:20 pm.
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 5:14 pm   #14
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

As far as I can work out from the WT act it isn't illegal to listen to anything but illegal to pass on the information heard or let known you have listened. A suitable "get out clause" for accidental reception. One case in point is airshows, you are not supposed to (deliberately) tune into air traffic comms but they publish the frequencies.

I use "get_iplayer" to record BBC radio programmes so I can enjoy them on my walk to work. It's a funny old world...
 
Old 23rd Feb 2020, 8:22 pm   #15
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
I think it may well be that the BBC was getting nervous as usual and responding to the Record Companies at that time but they did issue some ambiguous warnings directly and though news media. I'd assumed that they were talking about their own recordings but then they lost a great deal of what they had and took a very long time to realise the value of the music archive in particular. I think this was all institutional. The people who set things up and put out the programs at the beginning seemed to regard television or even radio as inferior and transient-a "hear" today and gone tomorrow medium like newspapers and photographs not an Art Form.

That attitude set the tone and went on far too long. I was watching the original Quatermass Experiment series the other day [again]. Quaint looking now perhaps but but a national sensation at the time. Only two of the four episodes remain.i In terms of numbers and code breaking a decision was made to destroy all the Bletchley Machinery after the war. I can understand the security concerns at the time [sort of] but it would have been great if they'd just put it in safe storage. We seem to have the very opposite attitude regarding 5G at the moment.

Dave W
Do you actually have any evidence of these BBC warnings? And how would home-taping affect the BBC unless somebody put out the recordings commercially? You may not be aware of BBC Records but they produced a fair number of LPs (Sound effects, Dennis Brain, Gerard Hoffnung, etc.) before the advent of the BBC Music Magazine and the plethora of CDs which you now find in flea markets all over the country.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "Bletchley Machinery" but not all of it was destroyed and a fair amount made its way to GCHQ.
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 10:24 pm   #16
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

You are probably much better informed Re Bletchley than me barretter. I've just read expressions of regret that more wasn't saved in the various articles about the fabulous restoration [or is that reconstruction?] work carried out. I had always understood that PM Churchill was particularly insistent that it didn't fall into the wrong hands. You're quite right I don't have evidence to hand about the Beeb and private recordings. It's just my recollection that it didn't make sense, seemed sporadic and annoying! Yes I've got quite a lot of BBC product vinyl and otherwise. Remember their own brand video tapes?. I e-mailed a Radio Three Producer once and congratulated him on a Nina Simone program but why no live at Ronnie Scot's. He didn't know about it and it was a Channel 4 film but I pointed out that the soundtrack was on a BBC Enterprises CD Not very well edited. You can view the original documentary on You Tube. It's amazing. What was BBC Enterprises doing with it? Not much really!

I can't support the anti taping comments either but just in last few minutes [moving archived documents] I've found a great deal of info I didn't know I had so we can remain hopeful perhaps? I've been tracking the BBC for a long time It still has my support but I'm hoping it can renew itself as a proper PSB rather than becoming a rival to Netflix as the BBG [BB Global].

Dave
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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 11:03 pm   #17
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

The BBC do not own all the rights in everything they currently broadcast, or have archive copies of, and this was sometimes the case in the past. Circa 1990 they did release some of the late Alexis Korner's jazz sessions on cassette/CD but were forced to withdraw them from sale. His descendants proved that his contract had only allowed the BBC to make a single AFAIR 15 ips mono recording of each programme that could only be used for one repeat broadcast and then retained for archiving only.

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Old 23rd Feb 2020, 11:26 pm   #18
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

That's interesting emeritus. A lot of Alexis material has appeared on CD. Fop records carried it in Manchester before they closed but maybe whoever put it out was prepared to pay the family. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the Beeb refused. As for the Codebreakers, I've remembered that I visited Bletchley in the early 90's when it was just getting going and I understood then, from the people there, that a lot of equipment was scrapped. Otherwise why the need to rebuild and put out a request for EF50's that got an amazing response?

Dave

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Old 24th Feb 2020, 12:12 am   #19
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

As the programme we are discussing was broadcast yesterday, has anyone anything relevant to add to to the subject in hand?
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 1:49 am   #20
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Default Re: BBC R4 Extra 'Codebreakers': 'Numbers' Stations

Coincidentally I've just finished watching Episode 3 of Hunting Hitler on Quest which tracks an escaping Hitler to a Monastery in central Spain where a light plane can land nearby in any conditions. It is only five miles from a major Nazi high power Radio Transmitter with three 120' masts that create a triangulation to navigate by, very similar to contemporary GPS systems. This Base is in a supposedly neutral country.

The go to a port in Gran Canaria which can supply U Boats. lt has four Enigma machines according to a pretty reliable looking witness! The next stage may have been from from Feurta Ventura. [next week]. I've been looking at the mysterious Gustav Winter house there for 20 years and have visited it.

There was a Ch 4 Documentary about that strange building including the incongruous industrial sized fusebox, quite recently. Suddenly there's a lot of interest! The repeated 4 Xtra program compilation is quite fascinating but apart from being fairly old now, sort of swings from codes in general to the major real life experience in the second world war which I suspect we still know relatively little about despite the films and documentaries

Dave W

Ref-Grey Wolf The Escape of Adolf Hitler The Case Presented
Simon Dunstan and Gerrard Williams 2011

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