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Hints, Tips and Solutions (Do NOT post requests for help here) If you have any useful general hints and tips for vintage technology repair and restoration, please share them here. PLEASE DO NOT POST REQUESTS FOR HELP HERE!

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Old 9th Jan 2011, 8:41 pm   #21
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Hi,

Many thanks David for your kind comments and I wouldn’t mind having a go at making a batch just for the fun of it but certainly not in this weather as it is just too hard.

Success at last; yesterday I gave the knobs three brush applied coats of Garnet shellac and allowed them to dry overnight then this afternoon I took them back into the garage to spin them on the lathe flatting the circular sections and flatting by hand the facets; all forty of them. This removed brush marks and nibs but required a great deal of care; the lighting was terrible even though I still had the two strip lights on together with the inspection lamp nearby; all through this project it’s been a case of doom and gloom; I wish I still had my old pit lamp which fastened to my helmet from 50 years ago as once again I was working by feel rather than by sight. It is still cold with bits of ice and snow still remaining; I dislike this climate with a passion.

I have been reduced to using my computer table for applying the shellac; the garage and workshop still in the ice age. In order to handle the knobs for applying the shellac I inserted 6mm countersunk set screws nipping them with the grub screws; this worked very well indeed as I was able to apply the shellac using a No.2 fan brush then stand the knobs on the screw heads; the knobs actually look like chocolates.

My plan was to apply shellac to seal the stain then blow over with clear acrylic either satin or gloss but once again the weather prevented this as the acrylic would bloom due to the cold if sprayed in the garage or workshop so I decided to use shellac to complete the job.

The knobs have turned out OK in the end; not perfect but acceptable and I’ll post them off to Vinrads next week with my compliments and will await his comments.

As you say David I can now get on with my telly restoration and once again I can resume my plywood hunt; I’ve enjoyed this knob project and hope it has been interesting reading; a small project but very deceptive in the processes and time involved. Should I decide to make more such knobs I’ll ensure I have finer abrasive belts for my belt sander and also rig up a faceplate sander for the lathe both of which would have saved me a great deal of time and effort and given better final results. The original knob is bottom left hand.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 21st Jan 2011, 3:29 pm   #22
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Hi,

I mentioned my intention of rigging up a faceplate sanding disc to fit my lathe and would like to share a delightful surprise with you.

I was not expecting any parcels so wondered what the large box contained as the post man handed it over. I can't thank David (David G4EBT) enough for his kindness and generosity as David took the trouble and expense of sending me a completed faceplate sanding unit that he had made as a gift for me and it fitted perfectly onto my DML24.

The disc screws directly onto the headstock mandrel and the table slots directly into the tool post; a minutes job to fit both but as these sanders are so useful I'll leave it on the lathe; it will get a lot of use and David even sent a selection of abrasive grits.

I was deeply moved by this and David modestly explained that as I've taken the trouble to make these Knobs for Vinrads David decided to help me out; I'm delighted and it's a shame to get this sander dirty as David has paid a great deal of attention to detail.

I thought this worth sharing; thank you David.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 21st Jan 2011, 5:50 pm   #23
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

I'm sure you'll pardon the pun, Col - so it appears that ...one good turn deserves another...
I couldn't resist!
-Tony
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Old 21st Jan 2011, 11:44 pm   #24
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Thanks for your kind comments Colin.

As to 'one good turn deserves another' it does indeed!

At risk of drifting off-topic, I feel that I must say that making the sanding disc attachment was a small gesture in return for all the help that Colin has given me and others on the forum, such as his efforts in making the wooden knobs (which may look deceptively simple to make, but certainly weren't).

What he doesn't say is that he's given me speaker fabric and all sorts of bits and pieces, including one of his ingenious wire-winding gizmos for making little coils on the ends of components so they can be slipped over existing clipped off wires on say valve-holders and soldered on, saving much trouble.

He's an enthusiastic and active member of the forum and tries to encourage others, especially on aspects such as cabinet work, French polishing and so on, which is out of the mainstream of the electronics side of restoration, and something that others may find a bit daunting, as evidenced by his TV cabinet under the thread 'A Restorers' Dream'. Colin is also a major contributor to the BVWS Bulletin, for which authors neither expect nor receive payment for their articles that are published in support of the BVWS.

All in all, great ambassador for the forum and the BVWS.

Not only that, he's now well set up for making wooden knobs, which is how this thread started!

David.
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Old 22nd Jan 2011, 11:36 am   #25
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Hi Tony,

Thanks for this and what goes around comes around.

Bronwyn has been requesting I make a set of this style of knob but larger for our hardwood kitchen units so this will be another interesting project to look forward to.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 22nd Jan 2011, 9:12 pm   #26
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Back on topic, although the knobs that Colin made were required to be made it wood, and to look like wood, it does occur to me that the bakelite knobs on some radios do lend themselves to being reproduced in wood. For anyone with woodturning skills this would be a good alternative to casting them in resin, which requires making a mould, casting, some machining and colouring.

I mention this as I noticed that the knobs on my Ekco A22 wouldn't be too difficult to reproduce in wood, then sprayed either brown or black as required, and barely discernible from the real thing. The larger knob (tuning), would be easier to make than the two smaller knobs (on-off/volume and wave change), which would be more fiddly to make as they have a 'wing' on them, but that's still do-able. I may have a go some time, out of interest. (I'll add it to the bottom of my 'to-do list'!)

I'm sure there must be many similar plain knobs which would lend themselves to being turned in wood, with a brass insert for the shaft, then sprayed to the desired colour. Obviously no good for knobs which have knurled edges or have engraved text such as 'volume' 'tone' etc or are plastic.

Not a commercial proposition of course, but for anyone with turning skills, worth thinking about. (where else, and how else, would one get a tuning knob for an A22 say?)

Just thinking out loud!

David
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Old 23rd Jan 2011, 10:37 am   #27
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

I suspect that Col did those knobs in wood for authenticity. If they are going to be painted before use then plastic, aluminium or brass might well be easier to turn.
Alan
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Old 23rd Jan 2011, 12:20 pm   #28
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Hi,

Many thanks David for your most moving comments it is very kind of you. I too have received help and generosity through this forum such as your delightful sanding disc unit; in fact my very first thread was such a request for help which astounded me by the number of replies; not only that but right from the beginning I felt a warmth of friendship encouraging me to try to join in. I had never joined a forum before and didn't understand them but this small beginning kick started me.

I'm no electronic whiz kid nor am I an expert in cabinetwork; I'm just a guy enjoying his hobby and am happy to share my stories through three forums and the BVWS. I actually know very little about about radio or TV so everything I write about is from my own hands on experiences as I know it works for me.

I was rather surprised when I first joined this forum to see so little basic information regarding all aspects of cabinetwork although there were many exemplary cabinet restorations shown. One thing led to another and here I am in the middle of restoring a wreck of a TV cabinet still learning as I make steady progress. I find cabinetwork to be highly rewarding as it is the cabinet that is on show and to really struggle and despair at times through a cabinet restoration only increases my sense of satisfaction once the restoration is complete and I'm sure many members must feel such a buzz.

For authentic reproduction moulded knobs Tony (Aerodyne) has a splendid thread on this forum covering the entire technique. You raised a number of interesting points David regarding turning knobs for anyone owning a lathe and suggest turning a knob in wood then spraying to the desired colour.

I've recently become aware of many materials that are ideal for so many aspects of our hobby ranging from Tufnol; plastic; nylon;alternative ivory;horn;tortoiseshell; ebony; mother of pearl and abalone just to mention a few. All these can be used in knob making either as a solid knob or for inserts.

If a black or white knob is suitable then I would highly recommend buying black or white round plastic bar stock which is relatively cheap and widely available. Plastic is a turners dream to use as I turned a rather complex transformer winding cage out of some and enjoyed every minute whilst doing so. Plastic can be turned to very fine tolerances and polished to a high degree of shine and although I've never tried it I would think it highly possible to add a knurled pattern around the perimeter of the knob using an engineering lathe knurling tool with a little imagination for use in a woodturning lathe.

There are many beautiful materials available to turn knobs from including Tagua nuts that are indistinguishable from ivory and these look well turned as small drawer knobs.

I'm always on the look out for interesting and unusual projects; ones that push me to the limit of my patience and encourage me to try out new ideas and techniques. The hardest part of any project is actually making a start and the worst thing that can happen is to fail which is highly unlikely as I've tackled many projects having to learn the basics from scratch and have never failed to date.

Please visit these two websites which open up a whole new world of excitement for anyone interested in tinkering around in a home workshop.

http://www.ivoryalternative.com/

http://www.directplastics.co.uk/

Many projects look daunting but only when viewed as an whole; once broken down into smaller sections they become much more manageable. I hope my ramblings encourage others to have a go.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 23rd Jan 2011, 12:27 pm   #29
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Hi Alan,

Yes plastic would be ideal for knobs but aluminium or brass whilst looking good would be a problem with a live chassis.

Both Alan and I own engineering lathes and are used to turning various metals.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 23rd Jan 2011, 1:59 pm   #30
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Col,

You are, of course, entirely correct. A sensible approach to H&S is called for. However, there are many battery sets and '70s onwards Hi-Fi which have Aluminium knobs.
I don't think I've ever seen a brass one

Alan
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Old 29th Jan 2011, 2:32 pm   #31
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

I just love this sort of thing. When I lived in Hudds there seemed to just loads of guys in sheds (converted garage) with decent engineering equipment making up all sorts of wonderful things.
I makes me want to design and build something just so I use some of these wooden knobs
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Old 29th Jan 2011, 5:00 pm   #32
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Hi,

Alan you could be the first to make brass knobs showing me how it's done but only for the low voltage sets of course.

I'm pleased you like this sort of thing crackleypot and I hope you are spreading the word in Glos about the delights of a shed or home workshop as we need to keep the old techniques alive before they die out forever.

I just wish for some global warming because it's much too cold to play with my toys; the frost is still with us today in the sheltered places with yet more frost for tonight. Do they have workshops in the Sahara because it might be worth moving?

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 30th Jan 2011, 11:47 pm   #33
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Hello all,

I'm going to stick my neck out here and show what a complete idiot I am - also, I'm just about to sell my lathe as I'm no craftsman anyway and the possibility of it outliving me was becoming a worry! This is a fascinating and instructive thread and I'm very grateful to Col for it.

Just as a matter of interest, having wondered how those knobs would have originally been made, did you consider and dismiss the idea of using a granny's tooth scraper to put the rounding onto a length of timber so all would be symmetrical and matched, then turning the knobs off afterward?

As I said, I'm no craftsman...

Ducking below the parapet - regards, Ant
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 1:19 am   #34
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Ant,
Don't do it, please.
Bitter experience says that within days or weeks you'll need it.
As far as being a Craftsman is concerned Col is much better than me, but that simply encourages me to try harder.
I don't know the best way to make the knobs but I'm sure there are all sorts of alternatives.
Alan
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 12:54 pm   #35
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Hi,

I'm pleased you like the thread Ant. Don't be so hard on yourself as I too don't regard myself as a craftsman; I possibly only succeed in my projects because I keep trying and have learned that patience is my biggest asset. I make many mistakes but always enjoy every one as I learn from them; the trick is not to make the same mistake twice or get upset when things go wrong; I just relax and enjoy myself after all it is my hobby not a punishment.

Many thanks for the compliment Alan it is very kind of you and I totally agree with you that Ant would possibly regret the sale of his lathe as soon as it left him; the only time I part with my machines is to upgrade with something better and I would never be without both woodturning and metal turning lathes as these are two of my favourite toys.

Please consider keeping your lathe Ant and if possible start to play with it because no one was born with lathe skills and with a bit of practice basics are soon learnt; make all the mistakes and enjoy doing so. My very first woodturning lathe was absolutely basic without any tooling and I always remember showing this off to my late father in law; I had a lump of wood between centres and had never turned before; as I was talking I suffered a really nasty dig in which detached the wood that was spinning at around 3,000 revs; it ran up my arm smacking me under the chin before finally coming to rest in the far corner of the garage; my father in law quickly vacated the garage whilst I retrieved the wood; since those days I've had more practice and that is all I needed to start producing acceptable results; of course I've now got better equipment but the best lathe in the world won't be any good without the person using it having had the practice.

Thanks for your suggestion Ant of using a "granny's tooth" scraper because as Alan says there are usually many ways of doing a job. The ideal way to make these knobs would be as you say in using a length of timber but this would mean the face of the knob would be turned entirely in end grain making it bland; also if a length of timber could have been used then it would have been a simple matter to make the length octagonal saving a great deal of work and ensuring all the flats were identical.

Working with the face of the wood to the front of the knobs threw up a number of problems all relating to concentricity of the knob around it's axis. The brass insert hole needed boring exactly on axis; the facets needed to be equally spaced around the axis and the turning also needed to be concentric; to get just one of these details wrong would have ended up with an unbalanced looking knob.

This is why I would encourage you to keep your lathe Ant and enjoy taking on such challenges; I've never tried making this kind of knob before so had to learn; the problems were there but coming up with the solutions was the fun part for me.

If I can help in any way or you would just like a natter about your lathe Ant please feel free to PM me but be aware my enthusiasm can be catching; and you could very well end up like Alan and me with lots of toys to play with.

What is your lathe Ant just for interest?

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 3:47 pm   #36
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlong View Post
...did you consider and dismiss the idea of using a granny's tooth scraper to put the rounding onto a length of timber so all would be symmetrical and matched, then turning the knobs off afterward?
On the face of things that may seem eminently sensible, but you couldn't do that as the wood would be end grain and too weak, albeit there are some very tough close-grained hardwoods which might be OK, though they wouldn't look like the originals. If you look at the original knobs and Colin's replacements, they're cross grain, as they should be.

There's rather more than met the eye about those knobs!

If you make an octagonal shape (or square or hex for that matter) and round off the top edge, as needed to be done with the knobs, you don't get a flat edge on each facet as per the originals - you end up with what's known as a 'pommel'. That is each side of the knob wouldn't have a flat edge to it at the top, but would be arched. Rather difficult to explain to non-woodturners, but if you look at a newel post on a staircase where it changes from square to round at the top, (which is usually finished off with a ball or acorn shape), you'll see that the flat sides of the newel post where it is cut in with a skirt (a 'cove') don't have a straight edge to them but an arched shape. Obvious when you think about it, as the gouge rounds off the corners as the wood rotates on the lathe.

However, each facet of those knobs at the top needed to have flat edges where they meet the top face of the knob. That can only be achieved by very careful sanding. It wouldn't be too hard to make knobs which looked similar to the originals - much harder to make them look identical! And to make several, which are a focal point of the radio and close together, which are all identical in size, needs to be micrometer perfect.

Which perhaps helps explain why non-one does that sort of work for a living - only for oneself, or as a big favour to friends!

David.
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Old 31st Jan 2011, 8:00 pm   #37
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Default Re: Making wooden knobs.

Hello Col, David et al,

Yes, I hadn't considered the grain particularly. Rather, I started from the thought "how would a mass-producer need to do it"... Certainly to make even one knob with the correct angles etc would be difficult and to make four requires a lot of expertise as we've seen.

The lathe is a Coronet Major, the maroon model with sawbench and a good selection of tools and accessories. While I don't anticipate it happening quite yet, statistics aren't in my favour now and someone will have a huge collection of hobby-related stuff to sort out. The lathe is getting a bit specialised in terms of potential purchasers. But this is drifting OT so an email or PM will follow!

Regards Ant
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