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Old 18th Oct 2017, 11:32 am   #261
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

True, but even a hi fi amplifier with a bent frequency response is, in the general case, operating in its linear region, that is under the control of NFB. This is not the case with an overdriven guitar amplifier, so the sound is much more susceptible to the foibles of the individual active device.
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 11:57 am   #262
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler
I'm disappointed in people who are convinced they can hear something very special but aren't driven to investigate it
In almost all cases they are incapable of investigating it because they know almost no physics. Of course, if they knew any physics they would know that a short audio cable cannot be directional so they would then be able to investigate why it appears to be directional.

I am currently in discussion with someone on another forum who, it has turned out, sells 'directional' cables. I suggested that he studies undergraduate physics in order to understand how wires actually work. His response was that this does not answer his questions, that it does not go deep enough, and Maxwell's equations are "old tech".

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Originally Posted by mole42uk
A friend, teaching medical students at the local hospital, often is asked "teach us what we need to know to pass the exams". This attitude exists also amongst electricians when I used to teach City& Guilds - "what's the least we have to do to pass?". I'm happy to infer that this expectation will prevail in other disciplines.
Yes. About 10 years ago I was demonstrating in undergraduate EE labs. A common question after obtaining a result was "Is that the right answer?". My usual response was "If that is the number you obtained from your apparatus, then for you that is the right answer.".

A few years earlier I was doing an MSc. A few weeks before the exams we had lots of revision lectures, in which we were reminded what had been taught in each module. In some cases these seemed to sail somewhat too close to dropping hints about what questions we might be asked. I don't recall such lectures even taking place 30 years earlier when I was an undergraduate; we were expected to do our own revision from our own lecture notes.

Can I thank the forum moderators for allowing this thread to continue so we can all let off some steam?
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 12:24 pm   #263
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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In almost all cases they are incapable of investigating it because they know almost no physics. Of course, if they knew any physics they would know that a short audio cable cannot be directional ...
This is true for unloaded cables. But I believe the mains cables that Craig mentioned in passing back at post #119 have lumped-element circuitry at different points along them and they can clearly be directional. It's only a small leap, for the inexperienced at least, to imagine that high-end signal cables might have lumped elements hidden inside them which would make them directional too.

At the risk of causing even more distress, I heard reports from this year's Munich High-End audio show that this company https://www.schnerzinger.com/ has now released cables whose behaviour is managed not (or maybe 'not only') by passive elements but by an active system. So the cables now have, among other things, their own mains cables. I haven't yet heard of anyone suggesting that upgrading the cable's mains cable to a 'better' one can make a difference. But I fear it's only a matter of time ...

Cheers,

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Old 18th Oct 2017, 12:31 pm   #264
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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I heard reports from this year's Munich High-End audio show that this company https://www.schnerzinger.com/ has
Yes, I really wish you hadn't mentioned that.

Even more, I really wish I hadn't clicked the link. My blood pressure tablets aren't close by.....
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 1:02 pm   #265
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

Even a brief dip into the murky water suggests that they are adept at talking about sound transmission issues which undoubtedly affect the way something is heard then seguing into cable transmission whilst neglecting the completely different time delays involved. Sound travels at about 1ft/mS but signals in a cable run around a million times faster at 1ft/nS.

Applied to their own statement that a few cm positional error is significant in sound source placement it would seem that logically cables would need to differ in length by a few tens of kilometres to have the same effect!
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 1:27 pm   #266
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

Was it Einstein who said "The primary difference between intelligence and stupidity is that there is no limit to the latter"?
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 1:28 pm   #267
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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I still wonder if they do anything to those cables before they print the little arrows on them. Technically it is of no consequence, morally it is quite important.

David
Apparently, it's down to the direction in which the wire is cold-drawn, which affects the grain structure (OK), resulting in a directional resistance characteristic (well, possibly, but no evidence offered), which in turn directs noise signals to earth (!).
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 3:17 pm   #268
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

A passive mechanism which can discriminate between a wanted signal and noise is surely worth investigating? Just think of the benefits to instrumentation, communications, medical electronics, space travel.... oh the list is endless

....Or maybe the concept has remained untouched after all these years because there is quite simply nothing to it

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Old 18th Oct 2017, 3:21 pm   #269
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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This is true for unloaded cables. But I believe the mains cables that Craig mentioned in passing back at post #119 have lumped-element circuitry at different points along them and they can clearly be directional. It's only a small leap, for the inexperienced at least, to imagine that high-end signal cables might have lumped elements hidden inside them which would make them directional too.
GJ
No - the networks are not directional.

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Old 18th Oct 2017, 3:27 pm   #270
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

A 50Hz or audio-frequency circulator could be quite large....

David
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 3:31 pm   #271
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

I could do with a little "SCHNERZINGER® ATOMIC BONDING" to help repair my sash windows. Guess I'll have to stick with PVA.

I would suggest that there is an opportunity to sue these companies for misrepresentation but as they probably haven't sold anything it wouldn't be worth it.

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Old 18th Oct 2017, 3:46 pm   #272
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

Blimey! "The Beat Goes On" [Now who had a hit with that?] It wasn't very High Fi like a lot of the best stuff designed to be cranked out via a Juke Box or domestic radio?]. I share David's disappointment in the lack of interest apparently demonstrated in digging deep about almost anything [past, present or future] that isn't frivilous these days but some of that is the media effect and it certainly doesn't keep me up at night. Yes everyone has certainly had a chance to ventilate but why wipe out all that effort or stop an interesting thread that's highlighting some related issue's we might not have even known were there? That's getting a bit close to book burning or 1984 for me. I wish more of the threads could have been kept.

To be honest I've never been comfortable with the "phool" term. There's too much useful overlap to make enemies. I'm quite capable of wading in myself but it's always better to shake the hand of someone you think is talking nonsense and leave them with a reassuring [not] comment like "Well you're a braver man than me." I'm sure the chap I mentioned in the Tesla thread yesterday [who met Eric Laithwaite] thought some of my views questionable but I wouldn't have wanted to miss the interesting conversation that we had, completely at random. If I'd not mentioned Trams I would never had known he was an electrical engineer!

Dave W
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 3:54 pm   #273
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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People used to think the world was flat and you could fall off the edge
Yes they did, it fitted the observations made at the time, better observations and then the world was a sphere (and an oblate spheroid after that).

Don't delete this thread, that would be the antithesis of science "we don't like it, exterminate". IF cables are directional the supporting evidence would be very useful. As Isaac Newton said "we all stand on the shoulders of giants".

I am quite prepared to accept evidence, real, engineering, scientific, evidence that directionality and break in do exist, until then I will stick to what we know, and use to good effect now.

All we need is proof, repeatable proof.
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 4:37 pm   #274
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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Quote:
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At the risk of causing even more distress, I heard reports from this year's Munich High-End audio show that this company https://www.schnerzinger.com/ has now released cables whose behaviour is managed not (or maybe 'not only') by passive elements but by an active system. So the cables now have, among other things, their own mains cables. I haven't yet heard of anyone suggesting that upgrading the cable's mains cable to a 'better' one can make a difference. But I fear it's only a matter of time ...

Cheers,

GJ
****** hell - what a load of complete pseudoscience bollocks. Scherzinger falls into the same category as Bybee Slipstream Quantum Purifiers http://bybeetech.com/ .

Generically the products supplied by this outfit http://www.audio-magic.com/ including the Nano Fuses, one of which is filled with beeswax and the Pulsed Electron device (batteries not included).

And our very own Peter Belt; who could resist his "Morphic Link Paper Clips", "Morphic Message Foils", "Morphic Green Cream and the wonderfully named "Friendly Four legged stance device" http://www.pwbelectronics.co.uk/product-information .

And for the pinnacle of pseudoscience, type Quantum into the product search box here https://highend-electronics.com/coll.../tweaks?page=1
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 5:02 pm   #275
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

Something got mixed up in the quotes. It wasn't me who linked to Schnerzinger.

The sad thing about all this is that it is not possible to come up with an audio product (plus accompanying 'explanation') which is so silly that nobody will buy it. In fact, silliness and high price seem to be good selling points in some markets.
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 5:04 pm   #276
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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[
****** hell - what a load of complete pseudoscience bollocks. Scherzinger falls into the same category as Bybee Slipstream Quantum Purifiers http://bybeetech.com/ .


There must be a little bit of resistance wire in there..... 14gauge copper straight through would only be about 6milliohms. They could be meter shunts, I suppose.
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 5:20 pm   #277
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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[
****** hell - what a load of complete pseudoscience bollocks. Scherzinger falls into the same category as Bybee Slipstream Quantum Purifiers http://bybeetech.com/ .


There must be a little bit of resistance wire in there..... 14gauge copper straight through would only be about 6milliohms. They could be meter shunts, I suppose.
Well someone took one apart and found the attached Quantum Resistor in a Quantum Tube
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 5:22 pm   #278
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Something got mixed up in the quotes. It wasn't me who linked to Schnerzinger.
Oops - apologies, Dave.
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 5:24 pm   #279
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

What does that 0.25 ohm resistor achieve? Anything at all??
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 5:30 pm   #280
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Default Re: Audiophoolery. 'Cable Break In' - I never knew that!

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What does that 0.25 ohm resistor achieve? Anything at all??
Wastes a little bit of energy.
I would very much doubt is would do anything else at audio such as preventing the reflections seen in RF cables.
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