UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > General Vintage Technology > General Vintage Technology Discussions

Notices

General Vintage Technology Discussions For general discussions about vintage radio and other vintage electronics etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 8th Jul 2020, 9:55 pm   #1
60 oldjohn
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 3,961
Default Time Ball Hull (clock)

I hope my question is allowed, I have been asked. The Guildhall in Hull is the only municipal building in the UK to have a time ball. I believe Hull received its time signal from Greenwich. Anyone know how? I can think of two possible ways it could have been done in 1915.

John.
__________________
My favourite text message "I'll be there in five minutes, if not read again"
60 oldjohn is online now  
Old 8th Jul 2020, 10:25 pm   #2
M0FYA Andy
Nonode
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Preston, Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 2,510
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

I would imagine via a Post Office landline prior to radio.

Andy
M0FYA Andy is online now  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 1:38 pm   #3
60 oldjohn
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 3,961
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0FYA Andy View Post
I would imagine via a Post Office landline prior to radio.

Andy
I do not know what land lines the GPO had in the day. I did wonder if it used the telegraph lines down side of the Hull to London railway line? Dedicated line?


John.
__________________
My favourite text message "I'll be there in five minutes, if not read again"
60 oldjohn is online now  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 5:15 pm   #4
Hartley118
Nonode
 
Hartley118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK.
Posts: 2,196
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

The railway companies were very dependent on the telegraph network for timing - hence the once common sight of those multiple open telegraph wires on ceramic insulators alongside railway lines. In addition to signalling train movements, regular time signals were a vital part of railway safety and were used to set local station and signal box clocks. After all, it was crucial to know exactly when to expect a train This has provided a convenient excuse on a vintage forum to attach a photo of our own railway clock which hangs in our hall and is still our main time reference. We've owned it for 40 years and I understand it dates back to 1892. It’s a high quality 'fusee' movement which is accurate to a few seconds a day. I understand from a railway aficionado that it would have been corrected weekly from the telegraphed time signal..

It would have been straightforward to provide a railway telegraph time signal feed to any 'time ball' facility in order to correct its precise master clock. It's no coincidence that a time ball was normally associated with an observatory: before the days of the telegraph, astronomers used the movement of celestial bodies in order to measure time. For example, transits of the planets across the sun could be observed and reference made to a nautical almanac in order to determine accurate time. It would be interesting to contemplate the extent to which 19th century astronomers were comfortable with the 'new fangled' telegraphed time from Greenwich or whether they preferred to use their own celestial measurements.

Martin
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	John Walker Railway Clock.jpg
Views:	158
Size:	46.2 KB
ID:	210669  
__________________
BVWS Member

Last edited by Hartley118; 9th Jul 2020 at 5:34 pm.
Hartley118 is offline  
Old 9th Jul 2020, 5:29 pm   #5
VT FUSE
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Malvern, Worcestershire, UK.
Posts: 340
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

How about the time signal transmissions from the Eiffel Tower? ( with appropriate time correction applied)

These were often used by Jewellers and clock makers as a standard,many also built Crystal / Coherer receivers. Durng my younger days (50 years ago) I spoke with a very elderly Gent running the Wireless shop in my town who said that he was the local source for Clock makers and menders locally.

Mike
VT FUSE is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 1:34 am   #6
emeritus
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK.
Posts: 5,316
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

I think it was during the TV coverage of Sir Winston Churchill's funeral that the commentator, filling in while waiting for the train to depart from (I think) Paddington, talked about the responsibilities of railway guards. He mentioned how, for many years, the guard of the Irish Mail used to carry a chronometer to Holyhead for Ireland every night to ensure Ireland's time agreed with Greenwich time. Hull might have had a similar arrangement.

One of the things I kept away from the skip after Marconi Marine had left their site at Waterhouse Lane is a copy of the "British Code List for 1891", listing the individual four-letter telegraphic codes allocated to british and foreign shipping regstered with Lloyds. Whenever a registered ship was sighted by a Lloyds shore station (they has them overseas as well as around the coast of the UK), that information was sent to Lloyds. Similarly, the Met offce sent reports of predicted storm conditions by telegram to Lloyds' UK shore stations so they could hoist their storm cones to warn shipping. The fact that only communication by telegram is mentioned, might suggest that there was no direct telegraphic link to shore stations at that time. No mention of Hull's timing ball.

Last edited by emeritus; 10th Jul 2020 at 1:54 am. Reason: Typos
emeritus is offline  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 10:56 am   #7
broadgage
Nonode
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Somerset, UK.
Posts: 2,129
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

I consider it possible that the time ball was controlled by a local chronometer, and that this timepiece was periodically corrected by the Greenwich time signal sent by wire.
Therefore not reliant on a continuous connection to Greenwich, but only on being corrected from time to time.

A continuous connection would have been very costly and also somewhat vulnerable to breakdowns.

A local chronometer would have allowed accurate time control of the ball even if the telegraph line was out of order or required for some other purpose.
Correction even just once a week would give a good degree of accuracy, presuming a reasonable quality local chronometer.
broadgage is online now  
Old 10th Jul 2020, 12:22 pm   #8
AC/HL
Dekatron
 
AC/HL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 9,637
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

To give this an electronic context, in each of Mercury's (as was) nodes, was a primary multiplexer connected by the shortest route to the timing source in Birmingham, to synchronise the network. It's all different now, but in the early digital days that was how it was done, much like a time ball for general public use.
The time ball in Leeds was synchronised to Greenwich somehow, but no need these days of course.
AC/HL is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 9:13 am   #9
60 oldjohn
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 3,961
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

These are a few possibilities. I am sure it will be well documented somewhere, if only we knew where.

John.
__________________
My favourite text message "I'll be there in five minutes, if not read again"
60 oldjohn is online now  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 9:18 am   #10
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,485
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley118 View Post
the once common sight of those multiple open telegraph wires on ceramic insulators alongside railway lines
This also had a lot to do with the fact that the railways were uniquely in possession of very long, linear strips of land going all the way from one town to another, so anyone wanting to run wires all the way from A to B only had to negotiate with one landowner instead of several thousand.
SiriusHardware is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 10:19 am   #11
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,528
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley118 View Post
the once common sight of those multiple open telegraph wires on ceramic insulators alongside railway lines
This also had a lot to do with the fact that the railways were uniquely in possession of very long, linear strips of land going all the way from one town to another, so anyone wanting to run wires all the way from A to B only had to negotiate with one landowner instead of several thousand.

Wouldn't that apply similarly to running the wires alongside the roads? At any rate reducing the landowners from thousands to maybe tens.


As to how it was synced to Greenwich:


The first documented suggestion that a time ball could be added to the tower of the new Guildhall came at a meeting of the Property Committee on 15 May 1914, when the Chairman [Alderman Hall] stated that:...Councillor Johnson had suggested to him the desirability of the Corporation providing an electric time ball for the tower of the Guildhall, which would be connected by electricity, through the Post Office, with Greenwich, and would drop at 12 (noon) each day, in order to obtain general accuracy in time...

https://research.historicengland.org...s.aspx%3Fp%3D1
__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O

Last edited by Station X; 11th Jul 2020 at 10:26 am. Reason: Link fixed.
Herald1360 is offline  
Old 11th Jul 2020, 11:15 pm   #12
60 oldjohn
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 3,961
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

Thank you SH and Chris, I will read the document tomorrow. Meanwhile I have found this, out of all the magazines I could have looked at I chose this https://worldradiohistory.com/Archiv...ec-1908-05.pdf
Please scroll down to page 14. It is the US I do not know if it has any relevance to Hull.
John.
__________________
My favourite text message "I'll be there in five minutes, if not read again"
60 oldjohn is online now  
Old 14th Jul 2020, 10:31 am   #13
Brigham
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Co. Durham, UK.
Posts: 1,111
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

There was a time ball in the High Street for the port of Stockton-on-Tees, Co. Durham.
I can't remember when it disappeared, or how it was worked.
Information about it is scant, to say the least.
Brigham is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2020, 11:51 am   #14
Richard_FM
Nonode
 
Richard_FM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 2,000
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

I remember visiting Greenwich a few years ago I got to see the time ball drop on the hour.

In Edinburgh the traditional time signal is a cannon fired at 12 noon.
__________________
Hello IT: Have you Tried Turning It Off & On Again?
Richard_FM is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2020, 12:11 pm   #15
Radio Wrangler
Moderator
 
Radio Wrangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,801
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_FM View Post
In Edinburgh the traditional time signal is a cannon fired at 12 noon.
It's called the 1 o'clock gun and dates back to 1861.

Edinburghers look at their watches as 1 o'clock approaches, but keep an eye on the tourists. They wouldn't want to miss seeing them jump out of their skins

It's loud enough to be heard down in the port of Leith and out a bit into the Forth, if you're listening for it.

The Royal observatory was just across on Carlton Hill, and moved to Blackford Hill so the time source was close by.

David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done
Radio Wrangler is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2020, 4:44 pm   #16
paulsherwin
Moderator
 
paulsherwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 27,788
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

A lot of port towns had these sorts of facilities, so that ships could set their chronometers accurately.
paulsherwin is online now  
Old 14th Jul 2020, 11:18 pm   #17
Richard_FM
Nonode
 
Richard_FM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 2,000
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_FM View Post
In Edinburgh the traditional time signal is a cannon fired at 12 noon.
It's called the 1 o'clock gun and dates back to 1861.

Edinburghers look at their watches as 1 o'clock approaches, but keep an eye on the tourists. They wouldn't want to miss seeing them jump out of their skins

It's loud enough to be heard down in the port of Leith and out a bit into the Forth, if you're listening for it.

The Royal observatory was just across on Carlton Hill, and moved to Blackford Hill so the time source was close by.

David
Thanks for putting me right, I should have looked it up before posting!

Like paulsherwin mentioned, I was thinking Hull had a Time Ball so ships could had something set their clocks to.
__________________
Hello IT: Have you Tried Turning It Off & On Again?
Richard_FM is offline  
Old 14th Jul 2020, 11:37 pm   #18
emeritus
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK.
Posts: 5,316
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

I just found a comprehensive contemporaneous description of how time balls were operated in one of the old books I had rescued from a library clear-out when I was with GEC, but had never read in any detail. I came across it today when looking for something completely different. It is not dated, but it has a book plate saying that it was a school prize awarded in 1882.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Electric telegraph c.1880 .pdf (1.73 MB, 73 views)
emeritus is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2020, 12:19 am   #19
Radio Wrangler
Moderator
 
Radio Wrangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,801
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

1 o'clock sounds an odd time to me. Noon would have seemed more like a cardinal time.

Midnight even better But 1 o'clock it is and it's local clock time, not GMT.

But the tourists do jump!

David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done
Radio Wrangler is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2020, 8:06 am   #20
KeithsTV
Nonode
 
KeithsTV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,571
Default Re: Time Ball Hull (clock)

The story I heard regarding the gun being fired at 1 o'clock rather than 12 o'clock was that it only required one blank shell to be fired rather than 12 so reduced the cost of the service which appealed to the frugal Scots!

Keith
KeithsTV is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:49 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.