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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 8:27 pm   #41
The Philpott
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

The Sun: 'Despite binning the old TV and buying a new one, the couple say the internet signal is still terrible'

No surprises there!
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 8:27 pm   #42
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

It will be the power supply (switch mode) I guess.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 8:37 pm   #43
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Angry Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Quote:
Originally Posted by beery View Post
Hi all, I read this article and was disturbed by:-
"We'd just advise the public to make sure that their electric appliances are properly certified and meet current British standards,"

How are the public supposed to know? Are they supposed to see when the next EMC directive comes into place and then go out and buy a new TV?
Is using an old non-compliant electrical product a crime?
I, too, noticed that very irritating statement and thought along similar lines – not so much about monitoring EMC directives but how any member of the public would "make sure that their electric appliances are properly certified and meet current British standards". Does the kitemark still count for anything? Just had a look at the BSI website and got lost pretty quickly. Seems more orientated to businesses rather than the humble consumer…
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 10:07 pm   #44
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

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Originally Posted by Cobaltblue View Post
Anybody know if the interference was conducted or radiated?

What frequency was it?

Those who deal with EMI will know below 30MHz its a bit like the wild west.

Cheers

Mike T
If you look at Aberhosan on Streetview, it looks to me as though the mains and telephone feeds are all overhead wires, off the same set of poles. Plenty of scope for cross-coupling there. In which case the interference probably started as conducted down the mains wiring from the TV SMPS, and then it radiated over to the telephone wiring. The cables may have been separated by no more than a few feet, and possibly ran in parallel for 10s of metres.

And once the interference was on one telephone cable, it probably went to all the others when it was bundled into the village cabinet.

Frequency will be in the ADSL bands of 26 - 138kHz for upstream, and 138 - 1100kHz for downstream. Right in the usual frequency range of the typical SMPS.

Richard
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 11:50 pm   #45
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

So my understanding Radiated interference below 30MHz isn't really considered only conducted since.

"Conducted radiation specifications cover emissions in the frequency range of 150 kHz through 30 MHz. A separate set of radiated emissions specifications covers the spectrum of 30 MHz and greater."

"Electromagnetic conducted and radiated emissions are the radio frequency (RF) energy emitted by a product. The level of RF emissions are regulated to ensure that they do not cause unreasonable harm to other electronic products. At low frequencies (less than about 30 MHz) the conductors and cables of most electronic devices are ineffective as antennas and, thus, radiated emissions are not an issue."

In other words there is virtually no requirement for "radiated emissions" below 30MHz

If it were the case that the radiated transmissions were upsetting the broadband then it would be up to the ISP to make their equipment a bit less sensitive to interference?

They could have kept their TV

Or have I got that wrong.

Cheers

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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 6:30 am   #46
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

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Originally Posted by Cobaltblue View Post
Anybody know if the interference was conducted or radiated?

What frequency was it?

Those who deal with EMI will know below 30MHz its a bit like the wild west.

Cheers

Mike T
Mike, 612 kilohertz keeps getting mentioned in some articles
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 7:59 am   #47
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

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Originally Posted by m0cemdave View Post
I also wondered why this was a top news story.
Non-technical people nowadays have no idea that household equipment can radiate interference. That is ironical given the most homes nowadays radiate a lot more than in the past, mainly because of the switch-mode PSUs, the much larger number of devices in the average home and the low standards of compliance.

This would have been a bit different decades ago when many people realised that cars, and even planes, could interfere with the old analogue TV system and they could actually see that the snow on the picture coincided with a car driving past, or the wavy picture with a plane flying overhead.

I was in the news business for 15 years. For the average non-technical reader, the story has a very high "weird stuff" quotient and therefore worthy of publication. You might even argue that it serves an educational purpose, in addition to its entertainment value (albeit mainly Schadenfreude in this case).

I'm a radio amateur myself and used to suffer huge EMF interference pretty much across the HF bands at two specific times every day, each time for about half an hour. I tracked it down to my landlord, who lived on another floor of the same house. The interference came from an exercise treadmill, and was only generated when the belt was in motion. The problem was solved when I gave him ferrite-bead interference suppressors to put on the outside of the a/c line cord of the treadmill. Fortunately, he was an electrical engineer by training and therefore understood the problem!
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 8:07 am   #48
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

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Turns out it was an old Bush. John
Time to dump all those TV22s. John.
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 8:18 am   #49
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobaltblue View Post
So my understanding Radiated interference below 30MHz isn't really considered only conducted since.

"Conducted radiation specifications cover emissions in the frequency range of 150 kHz through 30 MHz. A separate set of radiated emissions specifications covers the spectrum of 30 MHz and greater."

"Electromagnetic conducted and radiated emissions are the radio frequency (RF) energy emitted by a product. The level of RF emissions are regulated to ensure that they do not cause unreasonable harm to other electronic products. At low frequencies (less than about 30 MHz) the conductors and cables of most electronic devices are ineffective as antennas and, thus, radiated emissions are not an issue."

In other words there is virtually no requirement for "radiated emissions" below 30MHz

If it were the case that the radiated transmissions were upsetting the broadband then it would be up to the ISP to make their equipment a bit less sensitive to interference?

They could have kept their TV

Or have I got that wrong.

Cheers

Mike T

Mike,

the differentiation between "conducted" and "radiated" below 30MHz is largely a matter of recognising that most equipment that is tested - stuff that is in volume production mostly like TVs etc - is pretty small compared to the wavelengths involved. Which means that they won't radiate efficiently - so conduction is going to be the main means in which they cause interference problems.

So if you took this TV *in isolation* and tested it for radiation, you would probably find very little problem. It will be the conducted interference, most likely coming straight back down the mains lead, and then into the house wiring, and in turn out on to the overhead wires that feed the house, that will have caused this. Once the signals are on such wires - they can capacitively cross-couple to other nearby wires, which as I pointed out previously look like could well be the phone network, since mains and telephone wiring appear to be sharing the same poles (looking at a pics of Aberhosan on Streetview).

The solution is also very simple. Fit a decent filter on the mains cord to the equipment. It may have had one which failed. Or equally it may never have had one - particularly if its Chinese made equipment, because they are famous for omitting "useless" components like EMC filters. They are "useless" because they make no difference to the main functioning of the equipment they fitted to.
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 9:48 am   #50
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Love that bit about the investigators left "Downbeat"! Then they called in a "Crack squad" with a spectrum analyser. Job sorted. 18 months to sort a simple problem or should have been.
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 10:03 am   #51
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Philpott View Post
The Sun: 'Despite binning the old TV and buying a new one, the couple say the internet signal is still terrible'
This makes me think that the service was marginal anyway, and only needed a little interference to tip it over the edge towards unusable. Quite likely the guilty Bush was producing more noise than it really ought to have been, but how many similar sets are in service elsewhere without knocking over a whole community's internet connectivity? I disliked the simplistic and triumphalist tone of the original article, it smacked of deflection and seeking to pin blame on "the little man" whereas the truth was probably rather more nuanced.
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 10:35 am   #52
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Comments noted but remember the newspaper!
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 11:17 am   #53
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Sexton_Mallard's post yesterday about using a MW Rx to locate the RF spectrum used in ADSL is spot-on.
Back in 2017, after several visits by Openreach "Van mannies", and my incresing irritation at their inability to fault-find, eventually the local Foreman came out. A proper time-served old-fashioned BT linesman/telecomms technician. A much older guy. Upon seeing my BEME Loop D/F Rx he produced his wee old MW/LW Tranny out of his van. 'Stuff using a modern H/held line analyser' says he, 'we'll do this the proper old-fashioned way'. We traced excessive RF interference to an effing "horsey" electric fence about 1/4 mile away. But then, I'd already kent about it from the constant "clicking" prevalent on 80m. Worse when it rains, as the hignorant horsey neighbour couldn't be bothered to keep the grass cut around the perifery of his field's fencing.
Whether the source is from a wee spark from a TV's EHT circuitry, faulty domestic appliances, or an electric fencer - the interference covers the whole RF Spectrum. Some frequencies often dominate - such as those in the MW band, which unfortunately are the same as used in ADSL down your telephone lines. BT divide their spectrum into "Bins" or Channels approx 4KHz wide.Basically, the more bins available(approx max of 276) - the better your Speeds. But then, your Modem & the Exchange equipment, upon detecting certain "Bin Frequencies" containing interference, will shut them down. Hence - slower speeds. They can, I believe, swop these channels about amongst your neighbours. So those who shout complaints the loudest - sometimes get better speeds than folk who keep stchum.
For proper Telecomms expert advice - best raise a query thread in that Forum sub-section.

Regards, David
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 11:17 am   #54
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

On the occasions where I've been involved in things which appeared in newspapers, I must admit I'd have been hard pressed to have recognised the incident from what I saw printed.

So I tend to assume that all journalist-produced text is of similar quality unless proven otherwise.

David
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 11:43 am   #55
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Jeremy Vine is doing a spot on this in his radio 2 show sometime between 12:00 and 14:00. Maybe we can glean a bit more info on the actual set.

Al
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 11:50 am   #56
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Hi
If it was a Vestel, which is probable, we've had a few in which the main smoothing electrolytic goes completely open circuit. Surprisingly, this causes only marginal picture interference and a bit of a background hash (not hum), but plays havoc with nearby equipment.
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 12:18 pm   #57
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Jeremy Vine is doing a spot on this in his radio 2 show sometime between 12:00 and 14:00. Maybe we can glean a bit more info on the actual set.

Al
No,no,no. I absolutely refuse to listen to Jeremy Vine. He rarely knows what he's talking about and just wallows in problems and unhappiness. I think it's all a conspiracy to boost the suicide rate through spreading depression.

David
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 4:32 pm   #58
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Don't worry the couple have surfaced for their Warholian 15 minutes.

Piers Morgan is sending them a TV to rival the one at The ODEON, Leicester Square.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hysterics.html

Stand down. All's well.
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 4:33 pm   #59
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They could have kept their TV

Or have I got that wrong.

Cheers

Mike T
You have. Any local MW dxers will be thankful it has gone. I'm sure it could have been repaired though.
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Old 23rd Sep 2020, 4:53 pm   #60
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Actually, if ADSL turns out to be so sensitive to LF/MF/HF QRM-generators and people get really grumpy about it and complain enough to get the tabloids involved.... there might just be a chance of getting all the crappy SMPS cleared out?

We could get out bands back!

David
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