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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 11:01 am   #21
Cobaltblue
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

A couple decades ago we had trouble with a Tiris reader in Ashford Kent.

It was used on a Bus Gate and suddenly stopped picking up tags.

On investigation it was being swamped with RF.

These units work in the 120 to 140KHz region.

I went down late at night 1AM to 5AM with the guys from BT and Virgin to switch of the on street router cabinets no difference but the signature of the signal slightly changed I brought it up on the scope connected to a broadband radio receiver, there was no doubt about it it was TV line signal the harmonics of which were swamping the Tiris reader.

I first heard the interference on my car radio (LW) and thought it sounded a bit like line whistle

The following morning one of my colleagues started going door to door to see who had a TV on 24/7 and the culprit was found just a few doors down.

An old Tosh, The back was off so were covers around the LOP stage to prevent it overheating, the old boy used to be in the trade apparently and was an insomniac.

We bought him a shiny new set and the problem was fixed!

Having fixed the Bus gate which had the bollard in the down position for months a fatal accident occurred when they were repaired a driver hit the bollards at high speed killing his 6 year old son.

Our elation at fixing the issue was deflated.

https://www.pressreader.com/uk/kenti...81663959094601

Cheers

Mike T
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 12:29 pm   #22
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Default Old TV upset Broadband

Just read this thought it would be of interest to forum folk.
For the past 18 months Openreach have been trying to solve the puzzle as to why the broadband would not work at certain times. They found the problem was caused by an old tv being switched on in the morning.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 12:47 pm   #23
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Some Openreach engineers are members of "The Not Terribly Good Society".

A few years back I had a line problem affecting both landline and broadband. An engineer put some test thing on the line and said the fault was 100 metres away. He then proceeded to raise paving flags about 20 metres from my front door, went away; problem still there.

Some days later I made big fuss with BT and they sent down a more senior chap who organised the correct repair work. The cause was a waterlogged junction box several houses away from my own. I did get a discount off my next bill though.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 2:08 pm   #24
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Namastay, folks,
Openreach, their "Engineers", and the lack of understanding of ADSL &/or Basic Electronics by these "Van Staff" as I now call them.
I started another tirade about them back on 8th Feb. 2017 (BT Broadband) - in "Modern Technology section. Having berated BT earlier in 2015.
No disrespect to "Old Hand" BT or PO Telephone folk, who served proper apprenticeships & obtained proper C & G or similar qualifications.
Many of these "Van Staff" folk only receive a minimum of 12 weeks training. They rely solely on their hand-held line analysers when in the house, or the computer set-up back in the Exchange. The concept of RF signals up & down the B & A lines, with an approx. spectrum of 25 - 138KHz for the Upload facility, & 138KHz - 1.1MHz for Download, is alien to them. Back in 2017, my ancient 1950's BEME Marine Loop DF Rx was able to locate excessive BB interference round about 660KHz from a UG cable rising up a nearby pole to an O/H JB.

Khudda Haffis, David

PS. I even learnt some basic HINDI back in 2015 - a great boon when communicating with BT's Call Centre in India

Last edited by David Simpson; 22nd Sep 2020 at 2:11 pm. Reason: Add'l info
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 3:38 pm   #25
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

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Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
Been developing spectrum analysers and EMC measuring receivers for national spectrum management agencies for decades. Never heard of 'SHINE' before.
David
I have, and it always makes me cringe.
Also RAIN, "Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise" RAIN & SHINE, get it?

I think they are examples of "backronyms".
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 4:32 pm   #26
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

A very interesting story and thread thanks Martin. Even without High Tech knowledge or a MW Radio you might have thought that some Broadband user would have noticed that the problem occurring from 7am to [maybe say 11pm] had the characteristics of the other type of major "repetitive" pattern often seen ie human behaviour. If the TV was switched on daily it must have been off ie no insomnia present. In a village that small they could perhaps have asked all households to not do anything electrical until after "Lift Off" at 7am and then start up their usual routines, one by one, until the Jamming began. Just a thought

I agree, the "Journalism" was non existent. Which is more than you can say about the interference

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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 4:55 pm   #27
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

They obviously went for a depressingly long time before they deployed a powerful enough diagnostic instrument.... A BRAIN!

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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 5:58 pm   #28
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Simpson View Post
Namastay, folks,
Openreach, their "Engineers", and the lack of understanding of ADSL &/or Basic Electronics by these "Van Staff" as I now call them.
The problem is getting an open reach engineer.
If you report a fault to BT they insist on sending an "inside" engineer first and make sure to tell you that if the fault is proved to be your side of the master socket you will be charged.
We have fibre to cabinet broadband that went down when we had heavy rain, I followed our overhead cable to the pole top box and saw the cover was open and all the cables green and full of leaves, took photos and tried to convince BT it was an open reach problem. No, the inside engineer had to come first, no appointments for 6 weeks (Covid). I eventually reported it to an open reach engineer I saw working locally, problem fixed.

Peter
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 6:11 pm   #29
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

It seems almost certain that there is no active radio amateur resident in the village, someone like that could never have tolerated that problem for so long without looking into it.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 6:12 pm   #30
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Perhaps we should persuade every Openreach tech to carry and use a MW/LW band radio. Today I was able to trace my landline cable from my house through the ground to the chamber in the pavement and trace the feed along the pavement and across the on its way to the cabinet some distance away. I was even able to trace the power incomer from the road. I was surprised the gas carcass in my house is radiating a lot of hash.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:02 pm   #31
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Default Well who would have thought.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54239180

I wonder which make and model number of TV was causing the problem and which part of the set it was radiating from.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:06 pm   #32
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Turns out it was an old Bush according to the https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/127337...-piers-morgan/

John
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:13 pm   #33
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Default Re: Well who would have thought.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Maurice View Post
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54239180

I wonder which make and model number of TV was causing the problem and which part of the set it was radiating from.
It might have been because a RIFA had blown up in it before it was sold on.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:25 pm   #34
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

So there we have it on old Bush or in my terms a modern Bush!! I suppose this is the modern variation of a burning bush, and interfering one, as other have suggested it probably a Switch mode PSU either with expired caps or not fitted in the first place. I notice in the Sun story Openreach brought in the crack squad to solve it, I assume they had to book out the brain from the stores.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:26 pm   #35
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

I'm still a little perplexed that something that might otherwise only have been a footnote (Jammin' in the Valleys) on the inside pages of EMC Monthly (or some other publication worthy of Have I Got News For You) has made it into so many organs of the national media. Must be a quiet news day, or a holy war on folk who like to keep things going.....

The mischievous side of me likes to think that the "old Bush TV" mentioned upthread was blatting the locale with Barkhausen-Kurz parasitics courtesy of a miscreant PL38 but I suspect it wasn't that old.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:27 pm   #36
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

I see from the Sun article that they chucked it in a builders skip... So now it can pollute the planet in Llanfill..

Sorry..
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:42 pm   #37
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
It seems almost certain that there is no active radio amateur resident in the village, someone like that could never have tolerated that problem for so long without looking into it.
More likely they would have been blamed for the problem. Pitchforks, Ducking Stool, then the Stake...

I know people who cause major local modem dropouts every time they go on 80m. On the other hand, they can't use the top end of 80m because the same poorly balanced lines and cheaply Chinese electronics wipe out all recepton.

--------

I also wondered why this was a top news story. There must be a reason for it, so what are Ofcom up to? It must have come from one of their press releases. Probably drumming up an excuse for poor quality broadband services...
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:44 pm   #38
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

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Originally Posted by slidertogrid View Post
I see from the Sun article that they chucked it in a builders skip... So now it can pollute the planet in Llanfill..

Sorry..
Just hope someone does not "rescue" it from the skip and keeps interfering with the broadband.......

peter
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:46 pm   #39
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Anybody know if the interference was conducted or radiated?

What frequency was it?

Those who deal with EMI will know below 30MHz its a bit like the wild west.

Cheers

Mike T
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:52 pm   #40
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Quote:
Originally Posted by chriswood1900 View Post
The stock photo in the Daily Post is not even a UK set, probably a US model!!
It is not a US model nor a European model. Neither of those areas have a channel 1. It is not Australian as there is no channels 0 or 5A.
Possibly an East European model.
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