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Old 24th Mar 2020, 8:47 pm   #41
dave walsh
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

I'm sorry about the abrupt end to my post at 30* folks. I was struck by the dreaded Windows 10 disappearing text Gremlin so had to save what was there. It all seems stable enough now. I would have concluded with-

"Denying him access to the Ally Pally opening celebration was a particularly cruel and vindictive action towards 'the loser', a not very worldly wise or mentally/physically strong character [in my opinion]. Who knows what our history of Television might have looked like without the bias against him?" Re post 23* [Steve] Yes it was all relative to the size of screens at the time but that was all they had for both formats surely? I'm not actually promoting either side in 1966 [I think Baird was looking towards something a lot higher than 625 back in 46]. It just seemed a disingenuous conclusion to me."

Dave W

I would be very grateful if Mods can tack the addendum on to post 30," for completeness and delete this one!

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Old 24th Mar 2020, 8:55 pm   #42
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

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The Decca TV definition was better than 16mm home movie quality and the sheer size of screen and brightness was more than entertainment quality.
Chris
The Decca 1000 is a very good projection television with good bandwidth and proper DC restoration unlike the Philips 1400A that my parents had which used the same CRT projector but gave much inferior results.

I was very impressed by Trevor Goodenough's Decca pictured below.

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Old 25th Mar 2020, 10:07 am   #43
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

That attached picture is very nice indeed. I remember when as a kid I went across the road to see may mate's parents new telly and being fascinated by the perfectly flat screen and the way the geometry wasn't all bent like it was on our telly. It was only years later that I realised it was a projection set.
I think I must have carried this over into my adult life, as when I became a TV engineer in 1969 I was always offended by pictures with barrel or pincushion distortion. Thank goodness for LCDs....although they bring their own problems.
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Old 25th Mar 2020, 12:10 pm   #44
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

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Re post 23* [Steve] Yes it was all relative to the size of screens at the time but that was all they had for both formats surely? I'm not actually promoting either side in 1966 [I think Baird was looking towards something a lot higher than 625 back in 46]. It just seemed a disingenuous conclusion to me."

Dave W
They knew that bigger screens were coming and so the 625 format made more sense regardless of the fact that at the time (it is said by some) there appeared to be little or no difference between 405 and 625. Future proofing. So, not so disingenuous, more a case of seeing the real reason for the choice of going to 625.

As a former collector, restorer, writer and well read vintage TV collector I've read many book about Baird and i stand by my views. I've nothing against him whatsoever (!) and as I say he did play a big catalyst role in the development and commercialisation of TV. He was indeed a sad, even unlucky, but stoic character. I don't think he was so much victimised or castigated as he was a victim of his own shortcomings when it came to final analysis. His spinning disc TV was nothing more than a novelty in commercial terms and when TV went 'electronic' he was beaten to the line by the EMI team fairly and squarely. He was what he was.
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Old 25th Mar 2020, 12:43 pm   #45
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Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
"Denying him access to the Ally Pally opening celebration was a particularly cruel and vindictive action towards 'the loser', a not very worldly wise or mentally/physically strong character [in my opinion]. Who knows what our history of Television might have looked like without the bias against him?"
Dave W
I don't think Baird was denied access to the opening ceremony. He just wasn't invited to appear on the platform. Baird Television Ltd was represented on the platform by the company chairman Sir Harry Greer. Baird had effectively been sidelined from the company bearing his name 3 years previously and the technical direction had been taken over by Capt A. G. D. West who was also not invited to represent BTL on the platform.

The opening ceremony was shown twice. Once as above whilst being televised using the Baird system and then again using the Marconi-EMI system at which time Sir Harry Greer was replaced on the platform by the M-EMI chairman Mr Alfred Clark. Once again there was no representation on the platform by any of the design team.

Peter
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Old 25th Mar 2020, 2:48 pm   #46
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

I first saw 625 line at a friend's house in 1964/5 - his dad was in advertising so was usually first with the latest. The set was a Ferranti - that I remember clearly, also that all the faces looked long and thin and the contrast wasn't too good. I was only 6-ish at the time, and thought this was inherent in 625. When we got our own set (dual-standard Regentone) I realised it wasn't.
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Old 25th Mar 2020, 4:47 pm   #47
dave walsh
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

Well that's "faint praise" Ted. I recall it being said that achieving 1k lines would still only be the equivalent of a good 16mm film image at one time. Has all that changed with the advantage of Digital Broadcasting, software and 4k etc . It's also been claimed that the progress has been diminished by crowding more and more channels into the available bandwidth. How much of that is true I wonder? Coincidentally, I'm going to flag up tonight's cinematic vintage program, re 16mm footage, of a Scottish origin.

I understand both viewpoints on JLB and hope to get into the subject more deeply myself Steve. Perhaps I'm biased re JLB but I'm sure you aren't. Regarding 1966, following the Science all makes sense but it's the Corporate thing of consulting and ignoring in a way that bothered me. Always available under a Local Government near you or indeed from the BBC still

It's quite curious that I ended up at Bexhill [near he original Baird Court] 20 years ago, having no idea JLB had died here. It's been hard work getting the town to take an interest even in 96 or 2006. By contrast, the Hastings Wetherspoons is named after him. We now have a friend in Glasgow and I hope to visit the grave at Helensburg eventually. I won't deny that he was a troubled individual but not as much as his oppressor. There's plenty of grim evidence for that unfortunately. I thought the [much talked about on here] BBC4 series re Alexandra Palace had confirmed bad treatment re the opening Peter but maybe not? Your Witness List in post 1* certainly seems to brilliantly illustrate that he was "socially isolated" [to coin a more current usage].

Dave


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"There's something funny goin on" he said
"I can just feel it in the air!" Dylan 1974

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Old 25th Mar 2020, 5:56 pm   #48
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

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I thought the [much talked about on here] BBC4 series re Alexandra Palace had confirmed bad treatment re the opening Peter but maybe not? Your Witness List in post 1* certainly seems to brilliantly illustrate that he was "socially isolated" [to coin a more current usage].

Dave
Dave,

I think the apparently solitary listing of JLB on the witness list was probably because he was at the time essentially unconnected with any company or organisation.

Peter
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Old 25th Mar 2020, 6:08 pm   #49
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

Baird was first to demonstrate television. The principles were already known; just the technology was lacking. That applies to both mechanical (Nipkow) and cathode-ray (Swinton) scanning.

I don't know anyone who went out to buy a '625' set. Some of the better-off ones bought a 'BBC2' set, though.

If the Pilkington Committee had been open to all licence-holders, rather than just the likes of Joyce Grenfell, Colour would have been introduced on both channels before the third service even started.



"Time for Bed..." Zebedee, 1965.
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Old 25th Mar 2020, 7:16 pm   #50
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

For all experimenters in television the big problem was the camera not the receiver. Unfortunately for Baird this was not an area where he excelled.

Peter
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Old 26th Mar 2020, 4:48 pm   #51
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For all experimenters in television the big problem was the camera not the receiver. Unfortunately for Baird this was not an area where he excelled.

Peter
Absolutely agree. I use the Aurora for all my mechanical-scanning work.

The receiver is the easy bit!
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Old 27th Mar 2020, 11:53 am   #52
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

As a footnote to the question of the cessation of television broadcasting during the war there was in 1940 an interesting suggestion from Solomon Sagall, the managing director of Scophony Ltd, that broadcasting could continue by using a cable network and that receivers could be provided on a rental basis which would have the additional benefit of being able to include a proportion of television licence fee in the rent thus providing a contribution towards the provision of programs. (There was no television licence in the UK pre-war.)

Peter.
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Old 27th Mar 2020, 11:55 am   #53
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

Most decent 405 line TV's were capable of resolving the 3 M/cs bars, not always from the factory but with a bit of judicious twiddling they could resolved, but there was a very thin line between max definition and sound on vision.

Those were the days.

Peter
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Old 27th Mar 2020, 12:07 pm   #54
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rather than just the likes of Joyce Grenfell
What on earth has that got to do with it?
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Old 27th Mar 2020, 3:10 pm   #55
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rather than just the likes of Joyce Grenfell
What on earth has that got to do with it?
I feel that Joyce Grenfell wasn't qualified to sit on the panel; either technically, or as a representative of the viewing public.
I have nothing against her personally; I think she's hilarious, but that isn't exactly what the Pilkington Committee needed.
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Old 27th Mar 2020, 3:37 pm   #56
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

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Quote:
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rather than just the likes of Joyce Grenfell
What on earth has that got to do with it?
I feel that Joyce Grenfell wasn't qualified to sit on the panel; either technically, or as a representative of the viewing public.
I have nothing against her personally; I think she's hilarious, but that isn't exactly what the Pilkington Committee needed.
Maybe, back in those days when women were to some extent looked down upon in terms of their ability etc, that someone just thought that a woman on the panel would be a fair thing to do to get a different slant on the discussions? Not saying that is was right or wrong, merely that that may be how it came about. Were there any other women on the committee?
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Old 27th Mar 2020, 4:09 pm   #57
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

Sir Harry Pilkington
Harold Collison
Elwyn Davies
Joyce Grenfell
Richard Hoggart
EP Hudson
JS Shields
RL Smith-Rose
Elizabeth Whitley
WA Wright
Professor FH Newark (from March 1961)
John Megaw (resigned 5 January 1961)
Peter Hall (resigned 27 January 1961)
Sir Jock Campbell (resigned 2 February 1961)

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Old 27th Mar 2020, 4:30 pm   #58
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Default Re: 1946 Why 405 lines?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Kendall View Post
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rather than just the likes of Joyce Grenfell
What on earth has that got to do with it?
I feel that Joyce Grenfell wasn't qualified to sit on the panel; either technically, or as a representative of the viewing public.
I have nothing against her personally; I think she's hilarious, but that isn't exactly what the Pilkington Committee needed.
It seems to me very appropriate to have included an actual performer, musician and writer on the panel - especially one so perceptive and with such wide experience of working in the film industry. I guess that back in those days there would have been rather few TV performers with such useful experience to contribute to the panel

Joyce Grenfell was also extraordinarily well connected (niece of Lady Astor etc): that was probably a prerequisite back in those days! In fact she was the first comedian ever to have a memorial service at Westminster Abbey.

Martin
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Old 27th Mar 2020, 4:39 pm   #59
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Most decent 405 line TV's were capable of resolving the 3 M/cs bars, not always from the factory but with a bit of judicious twiddling they could resolved, but there was a very thin line between max definition and sound on vision.

Those were the days.

Peter
.......and there was no colour sub-carrier to get in the way of resolving maximum definition!

Martin
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Old 27th Mar 2020, 5:22 pm   #60
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In fact she was the first comedian ever to have a memorial service at Westminster Abbey.
She would have been a Comedienne then, in the pre PC days.
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