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Old 30th Apr 2021, 8:15 am   #21
Electronpusher0
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

I bought an old valve radio from a charity shop, normally, for CE marked goods, they do a PAT test and sell them.
In this case they told me I could not buy it but they would give it to me if I made a separate donation of, say, £10.
They seemed to think that covered it.

I am not sure it does but I did not argue as I wanted the radio.

For the HV psu I would be happy cutting the mains lead right off and sell as spares or repair.

Peter
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 9:08 am   #22
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

[QUOTE=GrimJosef;1369418]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinewave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB View Post
My understanding is that no-one, business or private, can sell electrical equipment which isn't safe. There is no formal definition of 'safe' as such. It comes down, in the end, to the judgement of a court. But certificated compliance with the 'harmonised standards' would be a strong defence against a claim that you'd sold an unsafe item.

A quick Google turns up this RoSPA page

https://www.rospa.com/home-safety/ad...ond-hand-goods

which asserts that

There is clear guidance out there that sellers should comply with, including ... the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1994.


GJ
Thanks Chaps for all of your replies. The extract above and RW's post 14 are what worry me about selling the psu.

I would strenuously deny that I had made an unsafe unit knowing how I had made it for the type of people like me who I would expect to use it. BUT, how can
a psu be called safe for the general public when 450 volts is available from a terminal on the front panel.

I would like to sell it as a complete and working unit as a bit of compensation for the many days it took to build it and the cost of the parts used but for my own safety I think I'll remove the two HV transformers and sell them separately with the remaining psu chassis as spares.

There might even be another problem; recently on eBay I've seen sellers cautioning their buyers in legalise type statements that if you hurt yourself with the transformer you've just bought you cannot hold the seller responsible. What prompts a seller to include such a statement.

Too many canned worms here I'm afraid.

Jim

Last edited by G4XWDJim; 30th Apr 2021 at 9:15 am. Reason: Tidying up.
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 9:19 am   #23
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

If anyone here or in VMARS wanted such an item they would know what is was for and any potential hazards from using it. If I was buying it I would be happy to sign a piece of paper saying I was absolving you from any injury caused to me by said item.
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 10:58 am   #24
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

Best bet, Jim, is to follow Mike Barker's example at BVWS Swapmeets Auctions - Snip the mains cable at the plug end !
I've never actually "sold" ex Marine or Military AM rigs & their PSU's I've re-built or made - just given them to a worthy ARS or swopped for something else with a Forum/BVWS/VMARS guy. Or given surplus T/Eq. to Mark Ryding or Mike Barker for selling for BVWS funds. Mind you, I do have a modern PAT Tester, and always check them out, anyway.
Ex Seismic's advice is spot on.

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Old 30th Apr 2021, 11:39 am   #25
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

I can see a similar dilemma for those of us who wanted to sell a bit of test gear. A 567 curve tracer can push out 1500V, and every one I've seen is missing the protective cover and interlock that offered some protection when new.

The way things are going the sale of mains plugs will be banned for anyone who is not a qualified member of some trade body and has passed the fitting a plug exam...
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 11:46 am   #26
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

Jim, selling the transformers should not be a problem as they are just "components". I know it goes against the grain considering your care and effort making it. Maybe offering as a complete unit on here should be ok.
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 12:15 pm   #27
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

Auction houses just cut the leads off and they are sold as collectables for display only, that's how some of my radios etc came. What I do next with them is out off their control, so not their responsibility.
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 12:25 pm   #28
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Arrow Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

Quote:
Originally Posted by FIXITNOW View Post
Auction house just cut the leads off . . .
Over many years my wife and / or I have purchased various electrical items from various auction houses in England: they've always had their mains leads attached, usually with a 13 amp plug.

Al. / Apr. 30
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 12:30 pm   #29
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

I never worry about fitting mains plugs, as I only use OEM mains leads (2 or 3 core) with moulded on plugs.

Most commercial equipment can be identified with a label indicating maker, type number, power spec, and serial number. Normally one would not undertake a PAT if the label was absent and the item would be discarded.
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 3:20 pm   #30
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

On a pragmatic front, you'd probably get the same amount of money for the major parts as for the finished item. If all you want is for the item to vanish and money to appear then there's no difference.

If you want it to go to a good home, then maybe you need to interview interested parties to weed out any idiots.

It sounds like a hard to find item full of interesting things.

David
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Old 30th Apr 2021, 4:10 pm   #31
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

Sell it as 'for spares' in a condition where it won't work if you just plug it in, so plug / internal fuse / mains cable removed. Add a high voltage sticker, maybe. That would satisfy my conscience.

I think you can get too paranoid about the legal position. If someone with enough money to buy an armful of top legal professionals decides to take you to court there is a decent chance you will get convicted even if you only sold them a spoon! And god help you if you refused to sell them that spoon!

dc
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Old 1st May 2021, 12:49 am   #32
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimJosef View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinewave View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GMB View Post
I think it is actually illegal. There are special rules about selling second hand electrical equipment.
For businesses yes, not for private individuals ...
Do you have a written reference for that ?
Yes. The law.

There is no law making it a legal requirement as a private seller.
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Old 1st May 2021, 7:38 am   #33
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

^ agree. In this country (well, so far at least...) it's only illegal if it's specifically stated as being illegal.

I can't find any reference to selling such stuff privately where it states it is illegal to do so.
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Old 1st May 2021, 10:21 am   #34
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

A trade seller ('in the course of business') is bound by contract law AND by consumer law, a private seller is bound by contract law. Under contract law the seller must merely make no false claims about the items, and by inference any question must be answered truthfully or not at all.

In a private sale then, the question of an item being 'dangerous' in someone's opinion is of no legal significance, but I would say is perhaps a matter of conscience, but if, and only if, the danger might not be obvious to the buyer.

However, once any such danger had been explained (and I was satisfied it was understood) I personally would regard my conscience as clear.

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Old 1st May 2021, 10:36 am   #35
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

Well, I'm not a lawyer but as I understand it the law is The General Product Safety Regulations 2005. The government helpfully provide the full text here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/.../contents/made.

The law places most of the legal obligations on 'producers' so we need to know who those people are. Fortunately Provision 2 defines a producer:

“producer” means—
(a) the manufacturer of a product, when he is established in a Member State and any other person presenting himself as the manufacturer by affixing to the product his name, trade mark or other distinctive mark, or the person who reconditions the product;
(b) when the manufacturer is not established in a Member State—
(i) if he has a representative established in a Member State, the representative,
(ii) in any other case, the importer of the product from a state that is not a Member State into a Member State;
(c) other professionals in the supply chain, insofar as their activities may affect the safety properties of a product;


(my bold). In section (c) they talk about professionals. But in section (a), which I think applies here, they don't. They talk about persons. The OP is a person, so I think that means he's a producer.

The core of the regulations come in Provision 5, which says:

(1) No producer shall place a product on the market unless the product is a safe product.
(2) No producer shall offer or agree to place a product on the market or expose or possess a product for placing on the market unless the product is a safe product.
(3) No producer shall offer or agree to supply a product or expose or possess a product for supply unless the product is a safe product.
(4) No producer shall supply a product unless the product is a safe product.


I understand 'placing a product on the market' to include offering it for sale.

So there we are. I've had a look through the regulations, which are the law, and I can't find an exemption for private individuals - it seems to apply universally to 'persons' - but if you can then it would be useful to see it.

On a more positive note, Provision 4 says:

These Regulations do not apply to a second-hand product supplied as a product to be repaired or reconditioned prior to being used, provided the supplier clearly informs the person to whom he supplies the product to that effect.

So that looks like a possible route for selling.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 1st May 2021, 10:46 am   #36
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

But... The General Product Safety Regulations 2005 - 2: Interpretations:

Quote:
“product” means a product which is intended for consumers or likely, under reasonably foreseeable conditions, to be used by consumers even if not intended for them and which is supplied or made available, whether for consideration or not, in the course of a commercial activity and whether it is new, used or reconditioned and includes a product that is supplied or made available to consumers for their own use in the context of providing a service.
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Old 1st May 2021, 10:48 am   #37
David Simpson
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

Jim, I wouldn't fanny about stripping down a lovely working PSU. Look up the next VMARS or Retrotek auction, or BVWS Swapmeet near you, and flog it to a keen recipient who probably knows his stuff. Or just advertise it on this Forum(purchaser collects, if its a heavy beast).
By the by, if it has an adjustable HT facility - then it might lend itself to a homebrew DC Valve Tester project for someone. How about a picture & spec., please ?

Regards, David
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Old 1st May 2021, 12:00 pm   #38
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

They sell 13 amp sockets loose in DIY stores with the warnings in small print inside the package and get away with end users blowing themselves up.
Leave the plug on and fix a strong bag over it after bagging the fuse separately with written warnings on the bags. Same with the output terminals.
Add a strong warning in the advert and you are on a three strikes and you are out clause.
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Old 1st May 2021, 12:04 pm   #39
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigon. View Post
... in the course of a commercial activity ...
So is selling something not commercial activity ?

Collins dictionary defines 'commercial' as:

1. adjective [usually ADJECTIVE noun]
Commercial means involving or relating to the buying and selling of goods.

I accept that you could give someone a piece of kit you'd built without incurring any liability. Or you could lend it to them for free. But once you take their money surely that's selling (or hiring if you expect to get it back, but the regs cover that under 'supplying') ?

Cheers,

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Old 1st May 2021, 12:25 pm   #40
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Default Re: Selling advice High Volts PSU

No, a private sale isn't a commercial sale.

Commercial would be if you're acting as a business. A private seller is someone just selling something they don't want anymore, who's business isn't selling, they're not acting as a business when selling said item.
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