15th Nov 2022, 11:22 am | #121 |
Octode
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Re: What's good about tape?
The post by @Gulliver has sparked a memory.
Some time ago I received a tape from a member - a Soundhog which I wanted for its look as much as anything else. However I played it and it contained a selection of stuff recorded from the radio that was really enjoyable. That sort of unexpected experience is something that I think is unique to tape. Would I have listened to the tracks on the Soundhog if Alexa had started playing them? No. I would have got two seconds in and chosen something else. But the fact that the Soundhog had content recorded when broadcast and recorded by someone making that choice (rather than a computer) made for an intriguing listen. While I am writing, I also see mention of type IV tapes. I don't think I have any and I am wondering of there is any sense in me paying the high price for one to see what the fuss is about. Is there? As I have said in other posts, I am quite content with Ferrics, but always keen to discover more.
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15th Nov 2022, 11:41 am | #122 |
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Re: What's good about tape?
Serendipity is indeed a wonderful thing - a box of old tapes usually has the odd gem in it.
Type IV tape rendered a whole generation of machines obsolescent, requiring as it did much higher bias and erase power, enough to saturate ferrite heads, hence the introduction of Sendust and the like. The quality margin over something like SA was pretty small in practice. Both the mechanics and the tape stock of cassettes demanded high precision in manufacture, and judging by the new tapes being marketed a lot of the subtleties have either been lost or ignored. |
15th Nov 2022, 1:47 pm | #123 |
Octode
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Re: What's good about tape?
I interested in what you say about he new tapes @Ted Kendall
Do you have experience of the ones made by RTM and/ or Capture? These are two brands that I hope to try when I have the resources, mainly out of curiosity. I know that the RTMs at least have a good review by Cassette Comeback on YouTube, but I am interested in what others think and have observed too. I have a fake TDK and new Bush ones in my stash and they seem remarkably similar in that the leader tape is cut too long - I wonder if these are produced by the same manufacturer and then someone else brands them. I am not short of cassettes as I have a decent selection of NOS and used ones. But I am still interested in new things, especially legitimate new tapes.
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15th Nov 2022, 3:14 pm | #124 |
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Re: What's good about tape?
Not forgetting cassette tape used to save and load programs
for the BBC micro computer many years ago.
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15th Nov 2022, 5:03 pm | #125 |
Octode
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Re: What's good about tape?
For anyone interested, here's a Cassette Comeback review of the RTM Fox cassette - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSBERdiVjrs
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15th Nov 2022, 5:54 pm | #126 |
Octode
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Re: What's good about tape?
The RTM tape should be the same that they give to reel users, so as far as Ferric tape goes, it should be good. However, bear in mind that even the best Ferric in the 80s / 90s, was audibly inferior to Cr02 and Metal unless you used Dolby.
In theory, Dolby is great (it's all over thousands of acclaimed records). However, unlike in R2R where width and speed give you a wide operational window, shell azimuth, track width and slow speed conspire to make cassette an altogether fussier affair. Dolby haters (of which there are many at the TH group) object on the grounds of 'pumping' artefact. This is due to small inaccuracies in alignment between machines, electrical and mechanical. Ergo, Dolby (and dbx particularly) tends to work best on machines that are in tip-top condition. It can be preferable not to use it on machines that aren't top notch due to side effects. Dolby compatibility between machines, even good ones, can be a hit'n'miss affair. If you're not using Dolby, you really will hear the hiss on Ferric tapes (TDK AD is the best I can think of - as good as an average Cr02 from another OEM). Even if you have a CR-7 or B215, you will find a noticeable improvement between Cr02 and Ferric sans-Dolby. And Metal will give you a jump over Cr02, but only if your machine is capable of extracting its additional capability. It's relatively simple to check the condition of your machine using freeware W+F testers, as well as audiotester.de for frequency response (the default choice of most of the TH group). You will know in seconds as to whether your heads / general condition are in good shape. Metal tape will be a waste if the machine isn't 100%. You can get a MOTU M4 soundcard for ~£230. Its audio spec is as good as audio analysers that cost 50x as much! I have several AAs and I also have an M4. For analogue tape, I don't need the AP! 2018 test of RTM: https://audiochrome.blogspot.com/201...-compared.html 56dB SNR, when the best chromes from the early 90s hit mid 60s... 10dB is an *awful* lot in cassette. This means that the 2018 RTM tape is noiser than TDK SA even with Dolby On... dB is logarithmic. 10dB isn't a lot in the digital world as few people will discern between a DAC that has 100dB SNR and 110dB SNR. When talking ~55-60dB SNR, 10dB is a mountain of noise. TDK AD was only a little quieter BTW. I think it nudged 60. Werner's site will tell you if you search. edit - TDK 1994 AD = 62dB SNR. 6dB = double / half, i.e. 1V + 6dB = 2V. So, you could say AD from 1994 is twice as quiet as 2018 RTM: https://audiochrome.blogspot.com/201...surements.html Last edited by knobtwiddler; 15th Nov 2022 at 6:06 pm. |
15th Nov 2022, 6:40 pm | #127 |
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Re: What's good about tape?
Two day's ago there was an interesting programme on BBC R3 about microphones. Wishing to have a recording of it & with only two minutes before the start of the broadcast, - what could I do?
Easy, I quickly found a nice NOS chrome cassette, popped it into my Denon Cassette recorder & pressed REC. My 1980's Scott Tuner/amplifier being permanently connected to the recorder. Sure I could have recorded it from BBC Sounds, onto a PC, but the cassette was quicker. I will probably digitise it later, but sometimes the simplicity of using a good quality cassette machine wins over. Also with 3-heads at least I knew it was recording! David. |
16th Nov 2022, 10:38 am | #128 |
Octode
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Re: What's good about tape?
There is a difference to asking the question I asked right at the start on here and elsewhere.
Here, from @knobtwiddler we have a detailed outline based on facts and numbers. Elsewhere, generally speaking, I'd have got responses about how "amazing" a tape sounds. Both are valid I suppose, but the feedback I have had on this thread has been really interesting. @Vintage Engr - can you tell me the name of the programme you recorded? Sounds like one I would like.
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24th Nov 2022, 11:43 am | #129 |
Nonode
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Re: What's good about tape?
Has anyone actually used those new tape recorders? I have looked at the Amazon reviews of several.
It seems like a general issue is that the electronics are not screened to exclude RFI from the motor. I assume they are talking about electronic interference, because it was there even if an external microphone was used. These things are not cheap, and you would expect that they would be fit for the purpose of making a recording . |
24th Nov 2022, 3:26 pm | #130 |
Dekatron
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Re: What's good about tape?
Honestly, don't bother. Any ambition to provide quality approaching the capabilities of the cassette system departed long ago, probably around the time Dolby stopped licensing noise reduction and HX Pro. A good, late machine of the Yamaha 430/Sony TCK611 class is a much better bet. The specs of some of these modern horrors are bad enough, never mind how actual samples perform.
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24th Nov 2022, 11:56 pm | #131 |
Octode
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Re: What's good about tape?
A word of warning about the TC-K611S: by my reckoning, the sandwich head is likely quite soft. I got one at a price I couldn't refuse (I haven't used it, as I haven't gotten around to mopping up the belt goo and changing them) a while back. Externally, it appears to have had virtually no use at all. No polished patches on buttons, no scratches or marks at all - looks spotless. However, there is a deep groove worn across the head (it's symmetrical, so machine was aligned well)... The previous generation of Sony had amorphous heads and they had a reputation for wear. I'm sure the 611 is a good machine in the right condition.
Some Sonys of that era have a mechanism that is very tricky to service, so be warned: https://www.tapeheads.net/threads/so...with-it.86572/ |
26th Nov 2022, 12:13 pm | #132 |
Heptode
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Re: What's good about tape?
Interesting discussion.
I gave up on TDK SA (and SA-X) because the mechanical quality seemed suspect to me in later years with tapes screeching. I moved to Maxell XL-II ( might have remembered the model wrongly). For computer use cassette was really a step too far, trying to load a game from cassette could really be hit and miss. Other digital tape formats existed and were developed for computer use (mainly backup). Similarly we have DAT for audio. Tape has one big disadvantage which it is easy to forget about as the years pass by as I discovered after I put a magnetic stud detector in a cupboard on top of a cassette tape. |
30th Nov 2022, 3:14 pm | #133 |
Octode
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Re: What's good about tape?
They were better than 8-track cartridges that switched tracks in the middle of a song...
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30th Nov 2022, 5:52 pm | #134 |
Nonode
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Re: What's good about tape?
Often the running order was changed to avoid this, or songs were faded out early to fit, or even better a blank section was inserted at the end of a track before the foil.
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30th Nov 2022, 7:20 pm | #135 |
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Re: What's good about tape?
The tracks were shuffled around in the 8-track of "Sgt. Pepper", which rather spoilt their carefully-arranged sequence.
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30th Nov 2022, 10:42 pm | #136 |
Nonode
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Re: What's good about tape?
I heard the Magical Mystery Tour 8-Track had one stand alone singles added to balance out the tracks.
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1st Dec 2022, 12:10 pm | #137 |
Dekatron
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Re: What's good about tape?
I remember a background music system coming in. It had an eight-track player and a carousel of eight cartridges that grumbled around a railway affair to play the next one, side one, then the whole process was repeated for sides two. Who needs an i-Pad?
Can still remember one cartridge that featured Gary Shearston's rendition of Cole Porter's 'I Get a Kick' in a Brummie accent! |
1st Dec 2022, 1:39 pm | #138 |
Heptode
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Re: What's good about tape?
There are some videos of the 'Telex' carousel 8 track player on YouTube - here's some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp8zVYd66MM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1efqMyUFUE The 8 track cartridge tape system was fun in its own special way. Over the years I collected quite a lot of tapes / players / recorders, and had a lot of entertainment from them. It did have some disadvantages, though. One that's already been mentioned, a stereo 8 track has 4 programs of equal length. Album tracks don't often fit exactly. To avoid long gaps, the songs' playing order was rearranged. Sometimes a song was repeated, or part of it (reprise). Or even worse, a song was faded out before the end, then continued on the next program. Very annoying. There are some rare cases, like on Pink Floyd's 'Animals' 8 track, the band plays a specially extended version of 'Pigs On The Wing' which is not available on any other format. There was a quadraphonic 8 track system that had 2 quadraphonic programs, but wasn't popular. 8 tracks were awkward to record on. It's difficult to tell how much tape is remaining on a program, and if you make a mistake you can't rewind. The tapes were prone to break at the splice, or the foam pressure pad disintegrated over time. I've had to fix quite a number of them. All good fun, though. Last edited by hamid_1; 1st Dec 2022 at 1:45 pm. Reason: added quadraphonic 8 track info |
7th Dec 2022, 6:00 pm | #139 |
Heptode
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Re: What's good about tape?
Just read through the whole thread, but didn't see any mention of Dolby C. My last Walkman (an Akai actually) and decent tape deck (can't remember the make) both had Dolby C, which I think came out after CDs were available. Does it have any benefits over Dolby B? The fancy decks all sported DBX instead.
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7th Dec 2022, 6:20 pm | #140 |
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Re: What's good about tape?
8-track players were not confined to audio applications; in the very-early-80s I looked after a CALCOMP drum-plotter whose controller booted from an 8-track cartridge!
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