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Old 20th Oct 2020, 1:00 am   #1
The_Archiver
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Default Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Infuriating problem with a back-up 5150 for which hopefully someone can help with, please!
Previous 5150 connected direct to 10+years old Philips HDD/DVDR using BNC>SCART (and then further SCART to TV) for transfer of footage, that arrangement having always worked flawlessly...until video heads recently became too worn.
Replacement 5150 used in exactly the same set-up produces a perfect picture whilst the Philips recorder is in standby, but, as soon as the Philips unit is switched on to be able to record from any Betamax tape, the picture exhibits ripples/waves every couple of seconds or so particularly in the top half of the image.
Have tried the other configuration of connections available between devices - RF, CVBS - and also swapping the bottom board, head preamp and servo control boards between the 5150’s, all to no avail.
The effect is very straining on the eyes, is not suitable for archiving old footage, and as my singular indoor interest, makes 2020 even more disagreeable!
Any advice/possible solutions will be interesting to try...
Thank you, stay safe.

Philip
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Old 20th Oct 2020, 6:09 pm   #2
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Are the Betamax, DVR & TV physically stacked one upon the other, or are they separated?

If you subsequently play back a recording from the DVR, is it stable, or showing the same effect as you describe when viewing the E-E picture?
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Old 20th Oct 2020, 7:04 pm   #3
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Graham, thanks for your reply.
All 3 devices are separated, and I have previously tried moving them much farther apart (several feet) but the effect is still the same.
The distorted image recorded by the DVR is the same when subsequently played back by the DVR, but am going to now try burning such a clip to DVD to confirm the effect is still apparent there.
Have also made absolutely sure that no cables - all good quality - carrying video signal are touching any others and that all power cables are separate (and connected to the same multi plug outlet, although have tried them in separate outlets, too).
With limited knowledge, I’m assuming that something inside the second 5150 may not have enough shielding...?
Later tonight, will try routing the signal from the Beta via RF through another [Samsung] VCR/DVD combi unit, which has in the past improved signal reception for Freeview to the point where additional channels were able to be found. May be irrelevant in this case, but it’s worth a try.
If nothing else works with current HDD, will try and get a different unit to test.

Philip
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Old 20th Oct 2020, 8:13 pm   #4
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

What I would do is to swap the complete drum unit including the motor from the worn out one with the good one .I also think examples of the VTC 5000,a 5150, come up on Auction sites and they may have decent heads due to the tape not being in contact when in ff/ rew modes .I ran betamax for many years and used this method to keep several Sanyo VT9300s in use.I Still have 3 Sony ,SL- HF 950S One has had brand new heads fitted and works perfectly the other 2 need the Hall IC unit Which I have now found stock of regards David
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Old 20th Oct 2020, 8:39 pm   #5
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

David, thanks for that.
Swapping the drum would be a last resort, as I am pretty useless at soldering which I know would be required, having the 5150 Service Manual to go by. Would that require having to align video heads and other tape path parts, and therefore needing correct specialist tools?
The ‘e’ site is constantly being monitored for other machines, but it could be a hit and miss as to getting a good condition one.
The testing of different cable connections continues!

Philip
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Old 20th Oct 2020, 9:09 pm   #6
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

As far I can recall no soldering needed just unhinge the boards undo the plug in leads unscrew the whole drum assembly,if I was nearer I Would offer to do it for you what I do suggest is contact user Sanbeta ,Kevin Lambert who is also on the betamax palsite and what he does"nt know about betamax could be written on a postage stamp he used to work for Sanyo and still does repairs his knowledge is 2nd to none regards David
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Old 20th Oct 2020, 10:11 pm   #7
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Would I be correct to assume that the Beta tape plays perfectly when connected direct to the TV?

Try this.
Make a recording on a bit of blank tape, perhaps using a digital box as a video source.
My guess will be that you will then be able to transfer that recording to the PVR without an issue.

When you play back a recording made one the same machine it was recorded on you effectively eliminate the slight timing errors that are inevitable in a helical recording system.

My guess is the Philips machine is sensitive to these errors and it's also possible its anti-piracy Macrovision function is being falsely invoked.

These slight timing errors are typically caused by stretched tape or incorrectly adjusted back-tension. You can test the latter hypothesis by playing back one of your troublesome tapes and seeing if you get any improvement by applying slight finger pressure on the back-tension arm (highlighted in red).

There's another way to deal with this, but let's see if we can establish a proof of concept first.

PS I really should have asked at the outset, but have you cleaned all parts of the tape transport with IPA? That's most important!
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Old 20th Oct 2020, 10:52 pm   #8
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Graham, as per original post, there is no picture interference when connected through Philips DVR whilst that unit is in standby, and also connected directly to TV via BNC and RF (tried the latter earlier this evening, that option giving the least interference but still noticeable).
If the anti-piracy function which the Philips machine does have, is being incorrectly activated, this is not being shown on-screen which should and has happened correctly in the past.
I will try and make a test recording tomorrow using a DVD as source (don’t have access to digibox as do not watch TV broadcasts these days!) and get back to you.
IPA is top of the toolbox, I’m very particular to cleanliness so no worries there.
Perhaps it may end up having to invest in an old Panasonic ES10 or 15...
Thanks again for tonight.

Philip
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Old 20th Oct 2020, 11:19 pm   #9
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

I would be tempted to measure the switching pin on the scart connector.
It is marked 12 volts and if it is not switched hard enough or the decoupling capacitor is faulty or not fitted ripple could cause it to let bits of off air signal through onto what you are making a copy of.
I once made a TV with a lost remote into a monitor by adding a 1K resistor to the switching pin on the scart.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 1:07 am   #10
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Refugee, I fear what you’ve suggested is even outwith my capabilities. Unsure if you mean the pin on the cable or within the socket on the rear of the HDD recorder, and what and where the decoupling capacitor is.
Basics with a multimeter is my safe limit!

Philip
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 1:12 am   #11
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Quote:
Originally Posted by davyrocket2 View Post
As far I can recall no soldering needed just unhinge the boards undo the plug in leads unscrew the whole drum assembly,if I was nearer I Would offer to do it for you what I do suggest is contact user Sanbeta ,Kevin Lambert who is also on the betamax palsite and what he does"nt know about betamax could be written on a postage stamp
David
David, if it is as you say, I may attempt that at the weekend.
The wonderful, amazing, fabulous Mr Lambert has also been helping me with this by e-mail, but I do not want to keep pestering him too much with this directly. My original 5150 would have died many years ago were it not for Kev.

Philip
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 10:16 am   #12
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Hello. Are you the person who used to sell Betamax tapes after cleaning them up?

Regards, David.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 1:58 pm   #13
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

David, I sell some videotapes (mostly Betamax, but some VHS and Philips VCR-LP) with details of contents on them after having been thoroughly archived, but there’s no cleaning carried out.

Philip
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 2:25 pm   #14
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

I may have purchased tapers from you off ebay many years ago the person I am thinking of found a way of running tapes and if there was the dreaded white mould found a way to remove it so the tapes could be used again,as your 5150 there is a slim chance that new video heads can still be purchased Donberg may have them regards David
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 5:46 pm   #15
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

David, I have in the past used an old erase head mounted on a wooden block with suitable drilled holes for keeping tape spools in place, then manually winding the tape over the edge of the erase head to remove the dreaded white stuff, but even this method was shared by someone else much more savvy than me!
Have taken your advice about swapping the complete drum units between the 5150’s, and so far the drum with the worn heads is now out (you’re right, just 3 screws and unplugging of wires). Only time will tell if I can get the other drum back in place...
Will have a look at Donberg. Wagner in Australia may still have them, too.
Coincidentally, I have a batch of 7 archived Betamax videotapes on offer right now on a certain site.

Philip
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 5:58 pm   #16
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
Would I be correct to assume that the Beta tape plays perfectly when connected direct to the TV?

Try this.
Make a recording on a bit of blank tape, perhaps using a digital box as a video source.
My guess will be that you will then be able to transfer that recording to the PVR without an issue.

When you play back a recording made one the same machine it was recorded on you effectively eliminate the slight timing errors that are inevitable in a helical recording system.

There's another way to deal with this, but let's see if we can establish a proof of concept first.
Graham, have made a Beta recording as you suggested, from a non-copy protected DVD. When playing back direct to TV through HDD on standby, no issue, but as before, as soon as the HDD is powered on to record from the Beta, the result is still a wavy picture.
Have also now confirmed that sending the Beta signal to my Samsung DVD recorder results in the picture problems when it is switched on, but as with the Philips HDD, not when the Samsung is in standby.
The Beta is still complete if there is anything else you can think of to try, but have today removed the complete head drum from the old 5150 (worn heads) in preparation for a swap. Last resort?

Philip
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 6:20 pm   #17
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

It may help someone identify what's happening if you made a short video of the screen.

I am sure your description is accurate, but you know the old saying about how much a picture is worth.
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 6:42 pm   #18
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Hello Philip whats your username on that site ? ,I would say if you can swap the drum units over you will not have to reset the tape path and one thing to llok for is a good pinch roller and condition of the 2 belts and the idler ,for me I have the betamax alighnment briefcase with alighment tapes and eccentricty meters and back tension meters regards David
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 9:32 pm   #19
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

Graham, I will try over the next couple of days to get two clips of the same footage, one made from the original 5150 before heads expired, and one with the troublesome 5150. If not able to upload here, will provide a YouTube link.
Thanks.

Philip
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Old 21st Oct 2020, 11:44 pm   #20
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Default Re: Sanyo VTC5150 - unstable picture on loop through

It just might be the modulator for RF output is causing the pattern. Try moving it two and fro to see if it clears.
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