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Old 19th Nov 2010, 4:46 pm   #1
Giles_London
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Default Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

Hello all,

I'm new to both vintage electrical equipment and online forums so please excuse me if my post makes me appear very ignorant or this has been covered in another area.

I have been growing increasingly interested in lost 1970s TV and the early home video recorders manufactured by Philips and have reached the conclusion that I shall probably purchase an n1700 and an n1502 (if I can find one and can afford it).

Is anyone able to tell me the pitfalls and traps I should be looking for with regard to condition, what could be wrong with the machines and the challenges I will have getting one working. I have already got a few tapes I am keen to explore and know that the chances of finding anything interesting are slim but now I have finished renovating my house I need a new challenge to keep me out of trouble!

I am aware there are risks with tinkering with vintage equipment and I have no intention of getting too involved with the inner workings but I assume that it will be difficult to find an example which is working perfectly and so I guess I would have to do some tweaking to get things going smoothly.

I read the forum rules and I do not want this post to appear like a wanted advert, I don't intend it to be that, but I am also keen to understand a bit more on what is an acceptable price to pay for a working machine vs. an untested machine (both for the n1700s and the n1502s). I am keen not to overpay

Hope folks don’t think I am being naive and shouldn't be messing around with these things unless I really know what I am doing but I guess everyone has to start somewhere and this seems as good a place as any.

Thanks in advance if anyone is able to give any advice.

Giles
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Old 19th Nov 2010, 7:56 pm   #2
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

Hi and welcome,
Don't worry about asking "daft" questions, we've all been there & done that (especially me!)
I don't know a lot about these early machines, but I was given a non-runner years ago and passed it on when we moved out here. One thing I DO know, however, is that they suffer dreadful "gooey belt syndrome" where the drive belts, wheels, brake blocks and associated rubberware turn into a sticky goo that's a br to remove. It's been covered in depth on here so a search should come up with something. Also, to my valve orientated eyes, they seem horrendously complicated - well, they were made by Philips after all.
Hope this helps and good luck, mate!
Cheers, Pete.
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Old 19th Nov 2010, 8:39 pm   #3
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

I would say the topic of most concern would be the heads. Very rare and expensive. When I got my first n1700, the shop I bought it from fitted a brand new head drum for me and the going rate back then was £80. After a few years use one of the two heads on the drum wore out - this happens quite suddenly as (I think) the "extinguishing frequency" lowers with wear.
Head wear is exacerbated by winding occuring with tape laced.
"Television" magazine, many years ago, printed an article about transplanting a good head-chip into a drum. I wonder if anyone here tried it. I also wonder if a VHS head-chip could be transplanted in.
I think one of my n1700s has a good head drum. My plan (for comment, please) is to play my tapes as best I can using another machine that has one dud head-chip so I can see what's on them. Then to transcribe anything rare using the decent machine. That way I hope to max the use of the rare heads. But that's a job for my retirement...
Good luck
Graham
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Old 19th Nov 2010, 9:50 pm   #4
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

The head chips is as far as I remember attached to the head drum with special epoxy adhesive. The head chips are really fragile, incorrect cleaning will ruin them. I doubt a VHS chip will do and even if it did its a precision job that would not be possible without the correct equipment.
The 1500 has a short playing time of just over an hour but can out perform any other domestic format if working correctly.
I would have one now but really wouldn't like to repair them again! I did too many from schools and colleges in the old days.
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Old 19th Nov 2010, 10:50 pm   #5
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

Quote:
Originally Posted by llama View Post
I think one of my n1700s has a good head drum. My plan (for comment, please) is to play my tapes as best I can using another machine that has one dud head-chip so I can see what's on them. Then to transcribe anything rare using the decent machine. That way I hope to max the use of the rare heads. But that's a job for my retirement
Hi Graham,

I was recently given a N1700 that had a slightly duff head drum. I decided to use it in a similar way to what you are proposing, in order to save the heads on my good N1702. After running a few tapes though it I noticed they all had the same problem of a line going through the picture. On further inspection of the head drum its self showed that part of one of the heads had been chipped and left a rough surface, which was then damaging the tapes! So be careful that your dud machine is not in a similar state.

You mentioned that you are hanging on for your retirement for this project. I dont know how far that is away, but it might be worth transferring your tapes sooner rather than later. Many VCR/VCR-LP tapes are becoming un-playable now due to sticky-shed syndrome so time is of the essence unfortunately.

Chris.
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Old 20th Nov 2010, 1:26 am   #6
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

I'm quite staggered nobody has said anything about the biggest downfall of the 1500/1502 .. The complete nightmare of the "string and springs" loader. What looks like a simple replace and get the tension right mission is in reality normally doomed from the start. When the string breaks the horribly complicated plastic gearbox has no way of stopping the drive (sensors are on the string or something.. I forget) and the gearbox just gets chewed up.
I had 4 like this in the early 80's .. after a few weeks of frustration they all went to the tip.
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Old 20th Nov 2010, 2:15 am   #7
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

I used to have no end of these.....the ones with the analogue 'proper' clock, the digital clock version 1500 & 1700...plus loads of tapes. Sadly, all had to be left behind when I moved house back in '99.
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Old 6th Nov 2015, 11:47 pm   #8
Henenen
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggrus View Post
The complete nightmare of the "string and springs" loader.
A bit late, but I've just seen a fix should anyone else suffer broken string on an N1500. This guy on YouTube replaced it with an old printer cog and rubber belt with teeth. Watch from 1.45.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifP1X0gDiOo
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Old 7th Nov 2015, 12:15 am   #9
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

The N1502 shares the same loading mech as the N1700 series and not the heath Robinson string and cog arrangement of the N1500, these are very reliable and as far as I can remember and gave no problems, but obviously 40 years down the line it might be different now?

The capstan motor can burn out as it's doing a very hard job, but this is also interchangeable with a spare head motor if need be and both motors sit on the same mounting plate.
The sync head and sound head didn't use to wear out like on a Betamax machine and may well be today doing their jobs.
One or two of the tape sensors (If I recall correctly-maybe wrong) used ordinary bulbs rather than LEDs and these of course can burn out causing fail to load problems.
The electronics were very robust then and the main bug bear was as others have said worn out or broken video heads, but the head drums are interchangeable between the 1500 and 1700.

Machines these days can give the appearance of having a broken video head when in fact all that is wrong is the tape is deteriorating (especially Scotch brand) and clogging the heads with oxide.

Last edited by cheerfulcharlie; 7th Nov 2015 at 12:33 am.
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Old 9th Nov 2015, 4:51 am   #10
Maarten
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

Quote:
the head drums are interchangeable between the 1500 and 1700.
The drums possibly, but the heads themselves are different as far as I know.
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Old 12th Nov 2015, 6:48 pm   #11
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggrus View Post
I'm quite staggered nobody has said anything about the biggest downfall of the 1500/1502 .. The complete nightmare of the "string and springs" loader.
You think that was bad, did you ever try re stringing the video 2000 deck?, that was a true nightmare.
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Old 12th Nov 2015, 8:00 pm   #12
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

Hi,

I too thought that the heads were different between N1500/1700 machines. The point of reference for all this might be Steve Beeching's book 'Video Cassette Recorders'. Not a book for beginners, but it does describe tape format and track layout in great detail.

Excess tape to drum tension was as far as I recall a problem on these early decks, which I believe, led to premature wear of the actual head tips.

The problem with restoring on of these units may well be that everything but the heads themselves may be working, but without decent heads (or tapes) you might well be stuck.

I've got a agree with Greg on the last post, a re-string of a VR2020 was a evil job.

SJM.
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Old 13th Nov 2015, 10:16 am   #13
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

The difference between the N1500 and N1700 heads is that the N1500 needs a guard band between tracks as both heads are set at the same azimuth angle so each head can easily read adjacent tracks. When the N1700 came out the azimuth angle of each head was +/- 15 degrees which eliminated the necessity for the guard band. As so much more tape for recording became available recording time just about doubled for the same length of tape. Some N1500 owners at the time modified their machines when the N1700 came out by halving the tape speed and fitting N1700 heads. This worked quite well but there were problems with colour reproduction as the 1700 circuitry was different in this respect.

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Old 13th Nov 2015, 12:59 pm   #14
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

Did any of you carry out the conversion on the 1700's to double play? I did a few and playback was still good. A very simple job I seem to remember.
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Old 13th Nov 2015, 1:25 pm   #15
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

I owned one of the Grundig versions of the N1700 format. After several problems with the head drum servo board, the heads eventually wore out after a few short years of infrequent use.

Personally, I would not buy such a machine unless it had been professionally serviced and came with a comprehensive guarantee. As the N1500/1700 were initially used for semi-professional use by schools, colleges etc you may find one from suppliers, but it's a long shot and you may have to pay a premium.
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Old 15th Nov 2015, 4:18 pm   #16
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

These machines are notoriously unreliable and horrendous to maintain.

If I was to sell one even with a 6 month guarantee I would be looking for around £1000 - the high price reflects the users of such machines now ie. archives who have valuable material that they need to preserve.

Formats such as these are now so rare now in working order - you should also consider the condition and deterioration of the tapes you are running through the machine which would require at the very least dry cleaning and baking before use.

2 inch Quadruplex tape machines currently change hands for around £130 000 in the commercial sector.

Archive tape formats with the kind of rareity of the Philips 15/1700 are no longer for the hobbyist or faint-hearted.
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Old 16th Nov 2015, 12:43 pm   #17
Maarten
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

There is quite a difference between maintaining an N1500/N1501 and the later models. The former is for sadomsochists if not restored properly in the first place, the latter is for people who just like to work hard.

On the other hand, head wear may still be the largest part of the TCO. A copy specialist I know in the Netherlands, does not rent out any of his machines, just works at an hourly rate. Apart from archives, he still digitises home recordings once in a while.
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Old 17th Nov 2015, 12:09 pm   #18
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Default Re: Question on Philips N1500 / N1700

Hi. I have in my loft[dry] a brand new N1702 ,well I think its a 1702 ,but might be a 1700 This is a machine that was never sold due to a fault which was never sorted due to the rise of VHS ,nobody wanted the Philips system ,because the film rentals were VHS . Heads should be perfect. Free , if your interested , but modest donation to Marie Curie appreciated.
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