Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Okto1984 · 11th May 2016, 7:04 pm

I'm looking to buy a new DVD player, and I like the idea of being able to play NTSC discs on my PAL TV (beovision 9000), and noticed some DVD players have a handy looking switch to do that - but I checked the manual to be sure that's what they do, and it seems they convert the NTSC to PAL 60. So it's not quite the same thing. Some years ago I did try a PAL TV with an NTSC signal and it gave a stable black and white picture - but buzzed rather loudly during this and then broke down with the picture jumping up and down, which it kept doing even after returning to a PAL source, so I'm really not keen to try NTSC anything again without knowing more. of course it might have been coincidence it broke, but I'm not sure? Any advice would be very welcome as googling isn't turning up anything at the moment.

FERNSEH · 11th May 2016, 8:13 pm

It won't do any harm supplying the Beovision 9000 with 60hz TV signals.
However, some advanced sync separator chips have a divide by 625 counter so that might cause some funny effects. However, most 80 and 90s TVs will lock into 525/60 or 625/50 without any problems.

DFWB.

hans · 11th May 2016, 10:03 pm

The LX 2800 (etc) that replaced the 9000 could do 525/60, but the picture height was too low.

'LIVEWIRE?' · 11th May 2016, 10:45 pm

Because the line frequencies of the two systems are similar (625 x 50 =31250,which, divided by 2 = 15625Hz, and 525 x 60 = 31500 divided by 2, this = 15150Hz, a difference of <3.3%) a 525 line picture will lock on most UK standard TVs, and, although I've no personal experience of this, I'd have thought there'd be no problem with any set capable of resolving NTSC signals, although I should add that I'm unfamiliar with PAL60, so don't know how it differs from the PAL system originally adopted in Britain.

Nicklyons2 · 12th May 2016, 9:33 am

PAL 60 is another one of those 'fudge' devices whereby a standard 625 / 50 PAL set is able to display an 525 / 60 NTSC picture. The subcarrier is usually converted to 4.43 from 3.58 and the NTSC colour to PAL. The line rate of std NTSC is 15,734 Hz as opposed to 15,625 Hz for std PAL and this should not give any problems. The field rate of 60Hz isn't usually converted and it's assumed that the TV will cope with this. Modern TVs have no problem, pre(sort of) 1990s TVs may exhibit low height, frame cramping or poor vertical linearity running at 60Hz but I can't think of a case where it caused damage; I think your previous experience may just have been bad luck/co-incidence.

The only 'fly in the ointment' you may experience is whether the colour subcarrier is converted up from 3.58 to 4.43; if it is you'll get a colour picture, if it isn't you'll only see B/W but again, no damage should result.

Most older DVDs VCRs etc offering this 'fudge' would have 'upped' the colour subcarrier because no older UK sets could cope with a 3.58 subcarrier. The point is that now nearly all modern flat screen sets can cope with nearly anything so some players may assume the displaying set can cope with a 3.58 subcarrier and not bother. Having said that I would hope most would still convert it up.

SteveCG · 12th May 2016, 10:50 am

By the way, you also can find 'NTSC 4.43' replay given on some Multi-standard VCRs.

I would suggest try it and see! If the picture height looks correct then as mentioned by others, the TV set has auto-switched to the 60 c/s field rate.

Early home computers had this issue, where they were generating 60 c/s pictures because of USA chip sets (The Acorn Atom comes to mind).

Okto1984 · 13th May 2016, 6:04 pm

Thank you to each of you for your replies. Seems I just got unlucky with the old TV at the time.

I have now bought a Pioneer DV-525 with a multi-region mod fitted. It isn't a particularly new player, it's from about 2001, so chances are it will be better suited to older TVs rather than modern flat screens. I'll have to see what happens when it gets here.

wd40addict · 13th May 2016, 6:17 pm

I have a Pioneer DV-350 and it works fine playing NTSC material as PAL60 into a 1987 Ferguson TX100. If your player is anything like mine there will be a menu setting to decide whether NTSC is converted to PAL or left unmolested for feeding to a multistandard TV.

Regards,

Paul

Okto1984 · 13th May 2016, 6:43 pm

Hi Paul, thank you for mentioning this. For some reason I had been expecting a switch on the back of the player, but will make sure to check out the menus now to see if that's how it works or if there's more features in there that might help.

I was actually trying to get a marantz player, but that proved difficult, and the Pioneer has very positive reviews, particularly for the sound, so I'm looking forward to trying it out.

Okto1984 · 18th May 2016, 7:13 pm

I've tested the DVD player and found that both the beovision 9000 and 7802 I have are working fine with PAL 60. A few cm from top and bottom of the screen are blank, but other than that it's a stable, clear, colour picture that fills most of the screen.

SteveCG · 19th May 2016, 3:34 pm

Okto1984,

... glad to read of your success ...

11th May 2016, 7:04 pm	#1
Okto1984 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Winchester, Hampshire, UK Posts: 288	Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? I'm looking to buy a new DVD player, and I like the idea of being able to play NTSC discs on my PAL TV (beovision 9000), and noticed some DVD players have a handy looking switch to do that - but I checked the manual to be sure that's what they do, and it seems they convert the NTSC to PAL 60. So it's not quite the same thing. Some years ago I did try a PAL TV with an NTSC signal and it gave a stable black and white picture - but buzzed rather loudly during this and then broke down with the picture jumping up and down, which it kept doing even after returning to a PAL source, so I'm really not keen to try NTSC anything again without knowing more. of course it might have been coincidence it broke, but I'm not sure? Any advice would be very welcome as googling isn't turning up anything at the moment.

11th May 2016, 8:13 pm	#2
FERNSEH Dekatron Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, UK. Posts: 7,444	Re: Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? It won't do any harm supplying the Beovision 9000 with 60hz TV signals. However, some advanced sync separator chips have a divide by 625 counter so that might cause some funny effects. However, most 80 and 90s TVs will lock into 525/60 or 625/50 without any problems. DFWB.

11th May 2016, 10:03 pm	#3
hans Heptode Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oslo, Norway. Posts: 632	Re: Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? The LX 2800 (etc) that replaced the 9000 could do 525/60, but the picture height was too low.

11th May 2016, 10:45 pm	#4
'LIVEWIRE?' Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton) Posts: 7,306	Re: Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? Because the line frequencies of the two systems are similar (625 x 50 =31250,which, divided by 2 = 15625Hz, and 525 x 60 = 31500 divided by 2, this = 15150Hz, a difference of <3.3%) a 525 line picture will lock on most UK standard TVs, and, although I've no personal experience of this, I'd have thought there'd be no problem with any set capable of resolving NTSC signals, although I should add that I'm unfamiliar with PAL60, so don't know how it differs from the PAL system originally adopted in Britain.

12th May 2016, 9:33 am	#5
Nicklyons2 Octode Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,517	Re: Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? PAL 60 is another one of those 'fudge' devices whereby a standard 625 / 50 PAL set is able to display an 525 / 60 NTSC picture. The subcarrier is usually converted to 4.43 from 3.58 and the NTSC colour to PAL. The line rate of std NTSC is 15,734 Hz as opposed to 15,625 Hz for std PAL and this should not give any problems. The field rate of 60Hz isn't usually converted and it's assumed that the TV will cope with this. Modern TVs have no problem, pre(sort of) 1990s TVs may exhibit low height, frame cramping or poor vertical linearity running at 60Hz but I can't think of a case where it caused damage; I think your previous experience may just have been bad luck/co-incidence. The only 'fly in the ointment' you may experience is whether the colour subcarrier is converted up from 3.58 to 4.43; if it is you'll get a colour picture, if it isn't you'll only see B/W but again, no damage should result. Most older DVDs VCRs etc offering this 'fudge' would have 'upped' the colour subcarrier because no older UK sets could cope with a 3.58 subcarrier. The point is that now nearly all modern flat screen sets can cope with nearly anything so some players may assume the displaying set can cope with a 3.58 subcarrier and not bother. Having said that I would hope most would still convert it up.

12th May 2016, 10:50 am	#6
SteveCG Nonode Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 2,495	Re: Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? By the way, you also can find 'NTSC 4.43' replay given on some Multi-standard VCRs. I would suggest try it and see! If the picture height looks correct then as mentioned by others, the TV set has auto-switched to the 60 c/s field rate. Early home computers had this issue, where they were generating 60 c/s pictures because of USA chip sets (The Acorn Atom comes to mind).

13th May 2016, 6:04 pm	#7
Okto1984 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Winchester, Hampshire, UK Posts: 288	Re: Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? Thank you to each of you for your replies. Seems I just got unlucky with the old TV at the time. I have now bought a Pioneer DV-525 with a multi-region mod fitted. It isn't a particularly new player, it's from about 2001, so chances are it will be better suited to older TVs rather than modern flat screens. I'll have to see what happens when it gets here.

13th May 2016, 6:17 pm	#8
wd40addict Octode Join Date: May 2009 Location: Stevenage, Herts. UK. Posts: 1,518	Re: Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? I have a Pioneer DV-350 and it works fine playing NTSC material as PAL60 into a 1987 Ferguson TX100. If your player is anything like mine there will be a menu setting to decide whether NTSC is converted to PAL or left unmolested for feeding to a multistandard TV. Regards, Paul

13th May 2016, 6:43 pm	#9
Okto1984 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Winchester, Hampshire, UK Posts: 288	Re: Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? Hi Paul, thank you for mentioning this. For some reason I had been expecting a switch on the back of the player, but will make sure to check out the menus now to see if that's how it works or if there's more features in there that might help. I was actually trying to get a marantz player, but that proved difficult, and the Pioneer has very positive reviews, particularly for the sound, so I'm looking forward to trying it out.

18th May 2016, 7:13 pm	#10
Okto1984 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Winchester, Hampshire, UK Posts: 288	Re: Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? I've tested the DVD player and found that both the beovision 9000 and 7802 I have are working fine with PAL 60. A few cm from top and bottom of the screen are blank, but other than that it's a stable, clear, colour picture that fills most of the screen.

19th May 2016, 3:34 pm	#11
SteveCG Nonode Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 2,495	Re: Is PAL 60 safe for my PAL TV? Okto1984, ... glad to read of your success ...