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Old 6th Aug 2020, 6:08 pm   #1
patrickgnl
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Default French Multi-standard TV’s

I have always been interested in the different analogue TV standards used around the world over the years.

I stumbled across this manual for a French 1980’s Colour TV. It was capable of 625/819, PAL/SECAM VHF/UHF and standards B,C,E,G,(H),I,L and L’. Presumably for communities close to Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg and Spain. It must have been a headache to programme the channels judging by the manual....

So much simpler here with our single standard UHF tuners.

Patrick
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Old 6th Aug 2020, 10:26 pm   #2
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

I have a multistandard 14" Schneider French TV, inherited from my late brother-in-law who lived in France for more than 30 years. I believe it came from his local supermarket, probably early/mid 1990's. It does SECAM, European PAL and UK PAL, VHF and UHF. Simple electronic tuning, 40 channels selected via up/down buttons on set or remote, and the standard is selected when tuning a channel, SCART, AV in via phonos, standard Belling-Lee co-ax aerial socket. Still in regular use in the back room with a digibox.

It seems that France used to use a slightly smaller version of the BL aerial connector. Amongst his cables were some leads terminated with the smaller co-ax plugs and fitted with adaptors to the BL size. I think I still have them if they are if any use to anyone.
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Old 7th Aug 2020, 2:59 am   #3
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickgnl View Post
I have always been interested in the different analogue TV standards used around the world over the years.
It’s definitely a complex subject, particularly when one factors in the “why” and “when: as well as the “what”.

One of the best sources of information was Alan Pemberton’s old site “World Analogue Television Standards and Waveforms”. I don’t think it still exists as such, but it is still available for example at: https://www.bbceng.info/Technical%20...0Waveforms.pdf.

The CCIR system letter designations have their own history, for example see: https://www.radios-tv.co.uk/communit...-designations/.

Belgian TV receivers were four-standard from the start, later more than four. A commentary on early practice may be found in Wireless World (WW) 1956 November, p.539ff, “Four-Standard Television”. Philips Technical Review (PTR) also had a couple of articles. One was: “The Different Television Standards Considered from the Point of View of Receiver Design”, 1955 January p.195ff, and the other was: “A Television Receiver Suitable for Four Standards”, 1955 December p.161ff.

The French “Strasbourg” type multistandard receiver was mentioned in a WW 1954 July article “Television I.F. Enquiry”, p.322ff. WW 1959 October, p.456 mentioned a French Telemaster Receiver that covered systems A, B, C, E and F as well as FM sound. A lot earlier than that, there were apparently some French 441/819 line dual-standard receivers, at least according to WW 1951 November p.459. And there were 405/819 dual-standard receivers used in the Havre peninsula, where the 405 Channel Islands broadcasts were receivable (WW 1962 October p.482).

The WW and PTR articles may be found at the American Radio History site, https://worldradiohistory.com/index.htm.

The basics of designing receivers for several line standards including both positive and negative vision modulation and AM and FM sound had been addressed by the mid-1950s, with the additional complication of UHF added in the early 1960s. In the IC era, it became easier in the early 1980s when multistandard signal-processing ICs, such as the TDA2549, became available. Such became very sophisticated in the end, for example the Motorola MC44302A IF subsystem with PLL vision demodulation, positive and negative, and AM and FM sound demodulation, one of its features being not only black level AGC for positive vision modulation, but long-term white level AGC as well.

Addressing both normal and inverted channels was another complication, particularly for IF selection. System E had both types in its tête-bêche channelling system, and system L’ was an inverted channel version of system L, for use in Band I. The standard French system E and L IFs did not fit well into multistandard reception requirements.

Decoding of multiple colour systems appears to have been catered for in the IC domain during the 1970s.

A later added complication was the numerous basic systems used for multichannel sound, some in several variants to suit different base TV systems.

Multistandard TV receivers were also used for shipboard reception. The QE2 installation was outlined in WW 1968 December p.448. I have attached a subject article from Motor Ship magazine 1982 March. I also have somewhere a manual for the Marconi Nomad multistandard shipboard TV receiver, from the early 1970s I think. Its is mostly discrete solid state circuitry, and to be quite honest, a bit cringeworthy in some respects, with for example TBA350-plus-slope detector combinations for FM sound on some standards.

During the later 1970s at least, Barco seemed to be prominent in multistandard receivers, with models such as the CRM2631 and 32, which I think were “grade two”, so a level above most domestic receivers. But I have never seen any circuit details for these.


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Old 7th Aug 2020, 8:14 am   #4
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Thanks for your replies - Synchrodyne, many thanks for your lengthy reply, i will see if i can find those articles you mention.

Funnily enough although analogue TV standards are pretty much irrelevant today, they still exist in modern TVs. I recently bought a small caravan TV in Aldi and was surprised it had an analogue tuner for pal/secam/ntsc3.58-4.43 b,g,h,i,d,k,l,m and also south american Pal-m and Pal-n in addition to the normal dvb-t/t2 digital tuner. I assume this is so they can make one model for multiple markets. Also few people will actually use it which was presumably why they were stripped out of UK set designs in the later years of analogue - when cost was no longer an issue - to prevent customer queries. Some Sony TVs to this day default to PAL-I and other options are disabled although they are there for other countries.

How well these modern tuners work with legacy equipment is another matter...

Patrick
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Old 7th Aug 2020, 1:33 pm   #5
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

I was told that a certain manufacturer made a special dual standard TV set for use in Northern France and the Channel Islands. Set could receive 819 and 405 line transmissions.

DFWB.
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Old 7th Aug 2020, 2:29 pm   #6
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Hi,
I have a huge collection of international TV sets, import, export,
produced in other countries.
Belgium has 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 standard TVs! Their first sets were
french 819 lines TVs, just because they had no own televison in
the late 40s/beginning 50s.
From fall 1953 they started their production by a lot of radio- or small
companies.
Some made only sets to receive both belgian standards, some had 3
to receive french TV.
The more expensive sets had 4 standards.
As France started with 625 lines/UHF they had 5 standards (still without
colour)
France made only a few, very few sets to receive french and german
television! I have a Grammont ~1956 and a Sonora from ~1956.

In the early years they had dual standard sets, very few, to receive
455 lines/Paris and 819 lines Paris. The production ended soon, because
the station had to air on both channels the same because they got
troubles with the customers.

Germany had a big production of 4 standard sets dedicated for the belgian
market. And some companies like Siemens and Telefunken produced
4 standard sets in Belgium which were different in style to the original
geman sets.
Germany offered also TV set only for reception of french and german
television.
On request you could bought a german TV set to receive television from
US forces in Germany. In the late 70s you could bought a 30,-DM sound
converter to watch american or british forces television. Have some, was
customer for that little set.

HMV made 4 standard sets in Belgium, too, and they were different in style
to the original british sets. Have one of them/1958-21".

Italy and Spain didn´t produce dual standard sets to receive french television.

Some TV sets from Finland and a few export sets from Russia dedicated to the
finish market were dual standard to receive russian television. Have two.

The Schneider is a Philips, not more a Schneider! I see this because of the
picture of the back in the folder and the tuning control assy.

Happy weekend,
German Dalek
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Old 7th Aug 2020, 2:48 pm   #7
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Just out of curiosity. Anyone know if the French ever experimented with 819 line colour like the British did with 405 lines?
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Old 7th Aug 2020, 3:46 pm   #8
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

I'm sure they did. Entered "couleur 819 lignes* into the Radiofil retro-forum and got 253 results.

DFWB.
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Old 7th Aug 2020, 4:47 pm   #9
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

My three year old TV is still capable of decoding analogue PAL TV, I guess the amount of processing for DTV that is required makes doing analogue easy. I bet the software in it can do almost any standard but is disabled to stop confusing customers or is naturally multi standard and works it out for its self.
 
Old 7th Aug 2020, 9:10 pm   #10
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davewantsone View Post
Just out of curiosity. Anyone know if the French ever experimented with 819 line colour like the British did with 405 lines?
Yes.

The original SECAM system was developed for 819 lines, with an 8.37 MHz nominal subcarrier frequency, and using AM subcarriers. It was described in WW 1957 September, pp.426-429. I am not sure if the change to FM subcarriers preceded or postceded the change to 625 lines. The discussions on a pan-European 625-line standard in an 8 MHz channel for UHF started around the same time.

Cheers,
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Old 7th Aug 2020, 9:25 pm   #11
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Quote:
Originally Posted by FERNSEH View Post
I was told that a certain manufacturer made a special dual standard TV set for use in Northern France and the Channel Islands. Set could receive 819 and 405 line transmissions.

DFWB.
I understand that the Rediffusion Channel Islands cable TV system included French as well as British TV in the 1950s. So I imagine that Rediffuson offered dual-standard 405/819 receivers.


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Old 7th Aug 2020, 9:54 pm   #12
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickgnl View Post
Thanks for your replies - Synchrodyne, many thanks for your lengthy reply, i will see if i can find those articles you mention.
No problem – brevity is not, as it were, my long suit…(Like poor old Polonius, I appreciate its virtue but fail with implementation.)

More brief comment on French multistandard TV receivers was provided in WW 1965 October p.501, attached.

Also, this post from “ORTF & Co” several years back, https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...&postcount=304, has attached a useful map showing the border areas in France where TV broadcasts from other countries were receivable. The overlap areas are quite large in the heavily-populated northeastern side of the hexagon. Presumably the regional population numbers were why Lille and Strasbourg were the 2nd and 3rd transmitters, after Paris, in the French 819-line chain. I understand that the Lille transmitter was sited to give good coverage into Belgium as well as locally. So very early on the scene was set for multistandard receivers.


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Old 7th Aug 2020, 10:10 pm   #13
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

This site:

http://tsf-schoser-2.e-monsite.com/p...ciennes-page1/

has some technical documentation for French Philips/Radiola multistandard TV receivers from the 1960s.


Cheers,
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 12:12 am   #14
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

I think Barco was the original equipment manufacturer for Siemens and possibly other German brands Multi/Belgium TV sets.

Also, Philips might have produced Multi/France sets in Italy though that was probably in Monza so not from an "independent" Italian manufacturer.
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 12:02 pm   #15
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synchrodyne View Post
No problem – brevity is not, as it were, my long suit…(Like poor old Polonius, I appreciate its virtue but fail with implementation.)
LOL, believe me when it comes to things that interest me, more is definitely better..

Many thanks for all of your responses. Plenty to read here, right up my street.



Patrick
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 2:51 pm   #16
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Italy had a very odd set of VHF frequencies

My 2001 Philips 21" set had a table to convert from MHz to the channel numbers (or letters) used in various countries.

I never got the chance to test this set with VHF but I think it could switch from system sound standards automatically.
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Old 8th Aug 2020, 11:21 pm   #17
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Some background to the Italian VHF TV channel frequencies may be found here: https://www.radios-tv.co.uk/communit...and-numbering/. Associated with that, the Italian standard IF of 1952 (40.25 MHz sound, 45.75 MHz vision) differed from the slightly later European standard (33.4 MHz sound, 38.9 MHz vision of 1954.


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Old 8th Aug 2020, 11:41 pm   #18
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_FM View Post
My 2001 Philips 21" set had a table to convert from MHz to the channel numbers (or letters) used in various countries.

I never got the chance to test this set with VHF but I think it could switch from system sound standards automatically.
Automatic switching seems likely. Stored in the depths of the garage now, I have a Philips 25 inch multistandard receiver that I bought in the US 1996, just before I moved to Cape Town. I used it in Cape Town (system I), then the USA (system M), then Sydney (system B), then for a while in NZ (systems B/G) before I capitulated to the digital age, just before the DSO towards the end of 2013. It had fully automatic system switching, and was fitted for IRT (Zweiton) stereo sound, as used in Australia. In the USA (MTS) and NZ (Nicam) I had to use outboard equipment to obtain stereo sound, a Luxman T407 TV tuner in the USA and whatever VCR in NZ. In fact even in Sydney, I found the VCR tuner better for stereo sound. Even when used just as a monitor, The Philips automatic system switching was useful as at the time I had both 525-NTSC and 625-PAL VCRs, connected via a Yamaha video switcher.


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Old 9th Aug 2020, 12:10 am   #19
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

Most modern sets (Panasonic is a notable exception) are multistandard analogue capable. Usually BG, I, DK, PAL/Secam/PAL M, PAL Nc. NTSC is always available via phonos and sometimes via the aerial system M. They will usually decode Nicam and German Zweiton stereo systems.

What I haven't yet found is a TV that has digital multistandards DVB-T/T2, ATSC, ISDB-T, and DTMB.

The markets for such sets is small but exists in border areas in the Americas. But I suppose in such areas one only has to buy a set top box for the adjacent area these days.
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Old 9th Aug 2020, 11:43 am   #20
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Default Re: French Multistandard TV’s

You’re right about Panasonic, i have had three Panasonic LCD TVs over the last twenty years and each one had a PAL-I tuner only but is PAL/SECAM/NTSC capable via scart or composite input. All Continental European market Panasonics have BG,DK,I,L tuners. I also have a small UK Sony LCD from 2013 and that has M built into the tuner too in addition to all of the other legacy standards, this is only available if you select ‘-‘ as the country rather than UK, which also disables certain functionality.

You can actually buy dvb-t/t2 with isdb-t tuners built in, presumably for South America, as Colombia uses DVB but everywhere else uses SBTVD (ie isdb-T) but i have never seeN dtmb or atsc as well. Although the market for dtmb outside china is non existent. As you say set top boxes are so inexpensive today they could easily be added for adjacent use...
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