early colour tvs - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Danny · 3rd Oct 2005, 9:45 pm

Hi all ive just bought two interestin ctvs the sad bit is the tubes are goosed!
broken necks. one is a phillips the other an ekco no model nos on eather set .
does anyone now the model nos thay have round tubes about 21" across
the necks are fatter than a delta gun tube. the rest of the sets are in very good condition. and i would like to get them going ! so i will need replacement tubes. i couldnt see any lables on the tube so i havent got a model no for them. thanks Danny

Paul_RK · 3rd Oct 2005, 10:13 pm

Hi Danny,

I'm pretty sure no round tube colour sets went into commercial production here - these would have to be experimental prototypes, unlikely to have any meaningful model number, using CRTs I'd guess imported from the US where colour services began a decade or so earlier. RCA's first 21" production CRT seems to have been the 21AXP22, but for all I know there could have been a few more types before these sets were built. Getting them to work sounds likely to be a very long and costly undertaking, but it's good to see a couple of survivors at least...

Paul

Danny · 3rd Oct 2005, 10:54 pm

Hi all ive just had a look on mikeys museum website and the philips set is listed as a 21kxo12a the tube his set has is an AX53-14 he says its the same as an RCA "kinescope" 21FBP22 so if anyone has one in their pocket i would be interested anyone got the circuit for one of thes sets?
thanks Danny

mickjjo · 3rd Oct 2005, 11:08 pm

Hi Danny, Believe it or not these tubes can turn up on ebay in the US:-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...192988507&rd=1

There is also an active forum across the pond which may help in locating tubes and other bits:-

http://audiokarma.org/forums/forumdi...5&daysprune=-1

Regards, Mick.

Steve_McVoy · 3rd Oct 2005, 11:23 pm

David Boynes is restoring an experimental 405 line color set:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/pye_e...tal_color.html

http://www.earlytelevision.org/pye_c...storation.html

He might be able to help with information.

ukcol · 4th Oct 2005, 4:34 pm

The BBC carried out experimental colour TV broadcasts starting in about 1955 using a system based on NTSC modified for the 405-line system. Could these sets have been any of those used for reception of those broadcasts?

As Paul says, there were no colour TVs marketed in Britain that used round CRTs. I took my City and Guides Colour TV Principles course just as colour TV was coming out in London. We did our practical work on RCA sets with 21" round CRTs at Southgate Tech in north London. They were NTSC sets, PAL sets not being available until a short while later.

Danny · 4th Oct 2005, 9:43 pm

Hi i the philips set says made in holland the ekco lable is much the same as you would find on a 50s ekco. i had tried ebay but didnt find anything for sale
i would realy like to get the ekco going first. i may power the set up at the weekend with the tube disconected to see if there is any life in it.

Kat Manton · 10th Oct 2005, 7:28 pm

Hi Danny,

Great to know there are still early colour sets out there awaiting discovery; I can live in hope, I guess

The Philips would seem to be a K4 chassis; normally 525/60/NTSC and made in Holland for export - but given it appeared in the UK there's an extremely good chance you've got an experimental PAL-625 UHF set. I found some info including four schematics in .tif format on this page in German http://bs.cyty.com/menschen/e-etzold...s/color_k4.htm (and again fed through 'Google Translate')

I've had something of an interest in these early sets though haven't got my hands on one yet. From what I know of the K4, most of yours should be similar to the commercially-produced version, the major difference being the colour decoder circuitry which you'll probably have to figure out for yourself or contact another owner.

The Ekco set; that is interesting... very interesting... have you had a look inside yet and determined whether it's VHF or UHF? If it's a VHF set it could conceivably be 405-line NTSC, PAL or SECAM, as tests were carried out in all three variants. Half the fun of a restoration of such a set is figuring out what colour 'non-standard' the set was made for then designing and making a standards convertor, too

I suspect with the Ekco set, unless you're very lucky, you'll have to trace and draw the schematic yourself - though there's a good chance that a lot of circuitry will be similar to contemporary production monochrome sets. Sounds like a nicely challenging restoration and I have to admit I'm a little envious...

Good luck with those rare survivors; they definitely need preservation. I wonder how many more early colour sets are still hiding away somewhere awaiting discovery? I must keep my eyes peeled and get out to more events, I guess...

Regards, Kat

Nickthedentist · 10th Oct 2005, 7:32 pm

Can I ask how such nice sets ended up with their necks broken?

Nick

ppppenguin · 10th Oct 2005, 11:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kat Manton

If it's a VHF set it could conceivably be 405-line NTSC, PAL or SECAM, as tests were carried out in all three variants.

AFAIK, PAL and SECAM were never tried on 405 lines.

Kat Manton · 11th Oct 2005, 1:17 am

Hi,

I beg to differ, (well, a bit anyway...) and it's taken a while to find a reference (It was one of those I know I've read this somewhere things, damn my forgettory. I may be a mine of useless information but bits of it fall out occasionally...

)

It's not where I originally got the info, but our very own Steve P has some information in this discussion of television standards.

The experimental 405/NTSC transmissions radiated by the BBC between 1956 and 1963 are mentioned; by far the longest-running period of trials of any colour system that was never adopted as far as I'm aware.

But, the ITA aparrently trialled 405/SECAM in late 1962 and in 1965-66 ABC Television demonstrated colour television using 405/PAL at its Teddington studios; (I've also found another reference citing 1960 as a date for ABC testing 405/SECAM) and there's a suggestion the BBC made tests with 405/PAL as well. But it looks unlikely that 405/PAL was ever actually transmitted and 405/SECAM doesn't appear to have been tested for long. It's all a bit confusing...

Armed with this information, (which I should have checked up on first

) and some guesswork based on the Ekco set looking 'a bit 1958' in style to my eyes, I'd suspect that it could possibly be a 405-line NTSC set as that was the colour system being trialled at the time. Fantastic!

This is all rather exciting (or maybe I'm a total anorak... no, don't answer that!) and I look forward to further reports on these sets with much interest.

Regards, Kat

ppppenguin · 11th Oct 2005, 4:16 am

I'll ask about SECAM at ABC next time I speak to Mike Cox. He was there at the time, working on the colour TV, and one of the main supporters of SECAM.

Danny · 11th Oct 2005, 11:20 pm

Hi all the philips is a k4 with an added pal decoder the ecko i dont know which system it is using but i would think it is ntsc but i havent puled the chassis out to see under neath the knobs on the ecko are the same as my
tcg mono set both sets have both vhf and uhf tuners of the valve veriaty
i bought these sets at the nvcf of one of the dealers when we wer loading up at the end he said that thay came from the philips museum when it closed but had been badly packed and thats how the crts were broken it is sad that this has happend . i also got a vary nice philips 9" set which he said also came from the philips museum .i dont know if this is true as i dont know off
any museum that has closed. thanks Danny

yagosaga · 16th Oct 2005, 10:36 pm

The Philips colour tv set with the K4 chassis is a very rare set. For replacing the crt you should try to get a 21FJP22 or a 21FBP22. The 21FBP22 needs an extra glass in front of the screen (I think, the Philips has this glass).
In the next weeks an U.S. colour tv set from East Germany will be available on the German ebay.
The 21AXP22 will probably not fit, it has a metal cone..
With some refinements the 21CYP22 will fit. I know that some of this crts still exist here.

Steve_P · 17th Oct 2005, 4:58 pm

Kat,

Very nice page that. But it isn't mine. Alan Pemberton did that and it's way better than my efforts.

I'm at www.penders.cwc.net/otindex.html

Anyway, the Philips Set is a K4 and there's one at Mikey Bennett's site. It's the third link down on my Links page. This one actually works I think. Mike's your man for Philips stuff.

Cheers,

Steve

3rd Oct 2005, 9:45 pm	#1
Danny Heptode Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Walsham, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 516	early colour tvs Hi all ive just bought two interestin ctvs the sad bit is the tubes are goosed! broken necks. one is a phillips the other an ekco no model nos on eather set . does anyone now the model nos thay have round tubes about 21" across the necks are fatter than a delta gun tube. the rest of the sets are in very good condition. and i would like to get them going ! so i will need replacement tubes. i couldnt see any lables on the tube so i havent got a model no for them. thanks Danny Attached Thumbnails

3rd Oct 2005, 10:13 pm	#2
Paul_RK Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Fakenham, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 4,255	Re: early colour tvs Hi Danny, I'm pretty sure no round tube colour sets went into commercial production here - these would have to be experimental prototypes, unlikely to have any meaningful model number, using CRTs I'd guess imported from the US where colour services began a decade or so earlier. RCA's first 21" production CRT seems to have been the 21AXP22, but for all I know there could have been a few more types before these sets were built. Getting them to work sounds likely to be a very long and costly undertaking, but it's good to see a couple of survivors at least... Paul

3rd Oct 2005, 10:54 pm	#3
Danny Heptode Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Walsham, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 516	Re: early colour tvs Hi all ive just had a look on mikeys museum website and the philips set is listed as a 21kxo12a the tube his set has is an AX53-14 he says its the same as an RCA "kinescope" 21FBP22 so if anyone has one in their pocket i would be interested anyone got the circuit for one of thes sets? thanks Danny

3rd Oct 2005, 11:08 pm	#4
mickjjo Rest in Peace Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dartford, Kent, UK. Posts: 1,661	Re: early colour tvs Hi Danny, Believe it or not these tubes can turn up on ebay in the US:- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...192988507&rd=1 There is also an active forum across the pond which may help in locating tubes and other bits:- http://audiokarma.org/forums/forumdi...5&daysprune=-1 Regards, Mick.

3rd Oct 2005, 11:23 pm	#5
Steve_McVoy Pentode Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA Posts: 150	Re: early colour tvs David Boynes is restoring an experimental 405 line color set: http://www.earlytelevision.org/pye_e...tal_color.html http://www.earlytelevision.org/pye_c...storation.html He might be able to help with information.

4th Oct 2005, 4:34 pm	#6
ukcol Rest in Peace Join Date: May 2003 Location: Harlaxton, Lincolnshire, UK. Posts: 3,944	Re: early colour tvs The BBC carried out experimental colour TV broadcasts starting in about 1955 using a system based on NTSC modified for the 405-line system. Could these sets have been any of those used for reception of those broadcasts? As Paul says, there were no colour TVs marketed in Britain that used round CRTs. I took my City and Guides Colour TV Principles course just as colour TV was coming out in London. We did our practical work on RCA sets with 21" round CRTs at Southgate Tech in north London. They were NTSC sets, PAL sets not being available until a short while later.

4th Oct 2005, 9:43 pm	#7
Danny Heptode Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Walsham, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 516	Re: early colour tvs Hi i the philips set says made in holland the ekco lable is much the same as you would find on a 50s ekco. i had tried ebay but didnt find anything for sale i would realy like to get the ekco going first. i may power the set up at the weekend with the tube disconected to see if there is any life in it. Attached Thumbnails

10th Oct 2005, 7:28 pm	#8
Kat Manton Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,700	Re: early colour tvs Hi Danny, Great to know there are still early colour sets out there awaiting discovery; I can live in hope, I guess The Philips would seem to be a K4 chassis; normally 525/60/NTSC and made in Holland for export - but given it appeared in the UK there's an extremely good chance you've got an experimental PAL-625 UHF set. I found some info including four schematics in .tif format on this page in German http://bs.cyty.com/menschen/e-etzold...s/color_k4.htm (and again fed through 'Google Translate') I've had something of an interest in these early sets though haven't got my hands on one yet. From what I know of the K4, most of yours should be similar to the commercially-produced version, the major difference being the colour decoder circuitry which you'll probably have to figure out for yourself or contact another owner. The Ekco set; that is interesting... very interesting... have you had a look inside yet and determined whether it's VHF or UHF? If it's a VHF set it could conceivably be 405-line NTSC, PAL or SECAM, as tests were carried out in all three variants. Half the fun of a restoration of such a set is figuring out what colour 'non-standard' the set was made for then designing and making a standards convertor, too I suspect with the Ekco set, unless you're very lucky, you'll have to trace and draw the schematic yourself - though there's a good chance that a lot of circuitry will be similar to contemporary production monochrome sets. Sounds like a nicely challenging restoration and I have to admit I'm a little envious... Good luck with those rare survivors; they definitely need preservation. I wonder how many more early colour sets are still hiding away somewhere awaiting discovery? I must keep my eyes peeled and get out to more events, I guess... Regards, Kat

10th Oct 2005, 7:32 pm	#9
Nickthedentist Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oxford, UK. Posts: 17,845	Re: early colour tvs Can I ask how such nice sets ended up with their necks broken? Nick

11th Oct 2005, 1:17 am	#11
Kat Manton Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,700	Re: early colour tvs Hi, I beg to differ, (well, a bit anyway...) and it's taken a while to find a reference (It was one of those I know I've read this somewhere things, damn my forgettory. I may be a mine of useless information but bits of it fall out occasionally... ) It's not where I originally got the info, but our very own Steve P has some information in this discussion of television standards. The experimental 405/NTSC transmissions radiated by the BBC between 1956 and 1963 are mentioned; by far the longest-running period of trials of any colour system that was never adopted as far as I'm aware. But, the ITA aparrently trialled 405/SECAM in late 1962 and in 1965-66 ABC Television demonstrated colour television using 405/PAL at its Teddington studios; (I've also found another reference citing 1960 as a date for ABC testing 405/SECAM) and there's a suggestion the BBC made tests with 405/PAL as well. But it looks unlikely that 405/PAL was ever actually transmitted and 405/SECAM doesn't appear to have been tested for long. It's all a bit confusing... Armed with this information, (which I should have checked up on first ) and some guesswork based on the Ekco set looking 'a bit 1958' in style to my eyes, I'd suspect that it could possibly be a 405-line NTSC set as that was the colour system being trialled at the time. Fantastic! This is all rather exciting (or maybe I'm a total anorak... no, don't answer that!) and I look forward to further reports on these sets with much interest. Regards, Kat

11th Oct 2005, 4:16 am	#12
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: early colour tvs I'll ask about SECAM at ABC next time I speak to Mike Cox. He was there at the time, working on the colour TV, and one of the main supporters of SECAM.

11th Oct 2005, 11:20 pm	#13
Danny Heptode Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Walsham, Norfolk, UK. Posts: 516	Re: early colour tvs Hi all the philips is a k4 with an added pal decoder the ecko i dont know which system it is using but i would think it is ntsc but i havent puled the chassis out to see under neath the knobs on the ecko are the same as my tcg mono set both sets have both vhf and uhf tuners of the valve veriaty i bought these sets at the nvcf of one of the dealers when we wer loading up at the end he said that thay came from the philips museum when it closed but had been badly packed and thats how the crts were broken it is sad that this has happend . i also got a vary nice philips 9" set which he said also came from the philips museum .i dont know if this is true as i dont know off any museum that has closed. thanks Danny

16th Oct 2005, 10:36 pm	#14
yagosaga Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Braunschweig, Germany Posts: 208	Re: early colour tvs The Philips colour tv set with the K4 chassis is a very rare set. For replacing the crt you should try to get a 21FJP22 or a 21FBP22. The 21FBP22 needs an extra glass in front of the screen (I think, the Philips has this glass). In the next weeks an U.S. colour tv set from East Germany will be available on the German ebay. The 21AXP22 will probably not fit, it has a metal cone.. With some refinements the 21CYP22 will fit. I know that some of this crts still exist here.

17th Oct 2005, 4:58 pm	#15
Steve_P Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 6,644	Re: early colour tvs Kat, Very nice page that. But it isn't mine. Alan Pemberton did that and it's way better than my efforts. I'm at www.penders.cwc.net/otindex.html Anyway, the Philips Set is a K4 and there's one at Mikey Bennett's site. It's the third link down on my Links page. This one actually works I think. Mike's your man for Philips stuff. Cheers, Steve