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Old 28th Sep 2022, 11:59 am   #1
Syrinx1
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Default BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Hi,

I wonder if anyone can help me out with the CMOS settings required, and how to test / setup a Winchester hard disk on a master128.

The hard drive is a vintage technomatic, which I believe is specifically for a BBC computer, as it contains an adaptec4070 scsi to st506 controller.

The drive has a 1mhz bus out connection for daisy chain, internally terminated with resistors and a ribbon cable which connects to the computers 1mhz bus socket.

I've replaced the CMOS battery, and so have had to re-enter the settings, and may have the configuration incorrect.

The rom numbering of the rom's present is:

F Terminal 01
E VIEW 04
D ACORN ADFS 50
C BASIC 04
B EDIT 01
A VIEWSHEET 02
9 DFS79
8 MASTER ROM 04

the other banks seem to be empty.

The current CMOS settings that might be relevant are:

NO BOOT
FDRIVE 5
HARD
FILE 13

Do these settings seem correct?

The hard disc spins up, and I hear the stepper moving the heads briefly on startup, but *ADFS and *CAT etc. Commands just return a blinking cursor and the hard drive doesn't seem to respond.

Does the hard disk need reformatting? If so would anyone be able to provide me with a copy of Superform on a 5.25 disc (I have plenty of blank discs I could supply)



Thanks,

Jonathan.
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Old 28th Sep 2022, 12:44 pm   #2
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

That looks like it should work to me in terms of configuration.

If the drive isn't formatted I'm fairly sure you get an error more or less immediately. That looks more like it isn't seeing the controller or the controller is waiting for the drive to report that it is ready.

First thing I'd check is for bent or tarnished pins on the 1mhz bus connector then it will be a case of maybe looking at the hardware directly with some assembler to see what is happening.

If recommend posting on the stardot.org.uk forums as there will be people with plenty of ideas and help there.

Your hard disk might be goosed but it is worth pursuing every avenue before condemning it as there are a number of simple electrical things that it may be and these setups are becoming increasingly rare

D
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Old 28th Sep 2022, 12:56 pm   #3
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Thanks Dominic,

I'll investigate further.
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Old 29th Sep 2022, 4:12 pm   #4
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Just checked and it looks like the adaptec4070 has a number of jumper positions which need to be configured for the hard drive unit. The computer came with an old, heavy (20kg) corvus Winchester drive too, which I thought was from an old Apple system and not the beeb, but now I'm wondering if the adaptec4070 was set up to drive both discs? The corvus contains an IMI7720 8inch Winchester.
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Old 29th Sep 2022, 4:26 pm   #5
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

I don't think the Corvus drive would have an ST412 interface which is presumably what the Adaptec board is expecting.

There are service manuals for a number of Corvus drive units over on bitsavers that might be of interest for that unit though.
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Old 30th Sep 2022, 9:59 am   #6
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Hmm if it had two drives could it be as simple as swapping the data connection over from J1 to J0? My memory of st506/412 is very hazy though.

http://chrisacorns.computinghistory....nchesterSM.pdf
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Old 30th Sep 2022, 11:52 am   #7
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Hi,

Thanks for all if the replies. I've dismantled and reassembled the drive a few times. The data connection was already set to J0. It is now recognised by the computer - I think one of the cables was badl7 seated. However it is now returning disc error 1c at 0/000000. I think this means that this requires a reformat to fix, but I would need a copy of superform on floppy to run.
If anyone is able to supply a copy I'd be eternally grateful.

Thanks,

Jonathan
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Old 2nd Oct 2022, 1:31 pm   #8
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

I find the word "Winchester" very nostalgic. Back in the day, your first hard drive was like your first car
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Old 2nd Oct 2022, 1:52 pm   #9
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

My first hard drive wasn't a Winchester.
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Old 3rd Oct 2022, 10:32 am   #10
Phil__G
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Neither was mine Tony but I recall in the hobby community Winchester or more often "Winnie" was used generically for any hard disk
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Old 3rd Oct 2022, 1:41 pm   #11
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

So when is a winchester a winchester. I was under the impression that IBM coined the name in the 50's for a half fixed, half removable drive and it came to just mean any hard drive?
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Old 3rd Oct 2022, 3:50 pm   #12
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

I beleve 'Winchester' means a factory sealed HDA that you don't open outside a cleanroom. In other words like just about all small micrcomputer hard drives

My first hard drive (as in the first one I got, it is also one of the older such things here) was a DEC RK05. A front-loading unit that you slide a disk cartridge into, The cartridge contains a aingle 14" disk and stores 2.5MBytes or so. The heads are part of the drive, not the cartridge, the thing has a blower fan and fine paper air filter to keep dust off the disk. Unlike Winchester type drives you can replace the heads 'in the field', I've done it.
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Old 3rd Oct 2022, 6:49 pm   #13
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

I have a Wren computer, that has a connector on the back, for a 'Winchester Disc'. Never had one with it. I wonder what it would have been. The connector is one of the common rectangular types that accept an IDC plug for ribbon cables.
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Old 6th Oct 2022, 8:35 am   #14
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominicbeesley View Post
So when is a winchester a winchester. I was under the impression that IBM coined the name in the 50's for a half fixed, half removable drive and it came to just mean any hard drive?
The first "Winchester" was the IBM 3340 drive, named after the Winchester 30-30 rifle, because the first sealed cartridge drive popularly made by IBM was supposed to be 30Mb exchangable + 30Mb fixed. It actually shipped with 35Mb+35Mb.
I was told at an interview with IBM in the 80's at their Winchester (England) research centre that they were named after that place, but I think that was IBMs idea of a joke
Several manufacturers made compatible cartridges (I believe they were the ones that were about 18" across, and resembled the "Millenium Falcon").
The term is now generally used for any sealed magnetic disk, i.e with inaccessable platters by ex-IBM employees and any people old enough to remember the term
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Old 7th Oct 2022, 9:29 am   #15
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Hi,

I'm now in the process of obtaining a copy of BBC micro HD formatting software thanks to Dominic's suggestion of posting on stardot.org.uk.

If anyone would like a copy, please PM me.

Thanks,

Jonathan
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Old 24th Oct 2022, 1:56 am   #16
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Thanks for the replies.

Superform did the trick, the Winchester is working!
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Old 24th Oct 2022, 9:46 am   #17
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Congratulations.
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Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 10:09 pm   #18
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Nice - thanks for the update!
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 4:53 am   #19
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Yes, good to see it's now all working.

Many manufacturers back then seemed keen on calling these Winchesters, with Acorn referring in their BBC Computer manuals to Winchester Filing System - That I've never seen, but seems it got integrated into ADFS
And later producing their own 'Winchester 130' etc - Doubly-misleading, as it was only 30MB, but maybe the '1' was to signify only 1 drive (Although wasn't enough space for two full-height 5.25" drives).

I do have one of these, that I've lent again to forum (and stardot) member ChrisOddy, to assist in getting to work a reproduction of the original Acorn 1MHz port to SCSI Host adaptor, and RPi-based RaSCSI RAM-Drive SCSI HDD H/W Interface emulator (as getting hold of working SCSI-drives, especially low-capacity ones / ones that support Acorn's 256-Byte sectors is now getting difficult. And it seems that all the various make ones for the Beeb, all used an ST-506 HDD, with an Adaptec to SCSI Host Adaptor board).

Chris had mentioned he'd been trying the SuperForm, and also the enhanced UltraForm programs, which could see mine OK, without needing to reformat it.
And the HDD may need certain codes in it's low-level format first sector, to tell the Adaptec adaptor what it's geometry is (like in PC's BIOS, before IDE auto-detect) as SCSI is higher level / or for the Beeb to identify it.
(With 'Acorn' also needing to be on the disk, for use in their Econet Filestores - possibly a measure, to try to ensure you couldn't upgrade the capacity, by just swapping the HDD for one bought elsewhere)
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Old 9th Nov 2022, 5:47 am   #20
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Default Re: BBC Master 128 Winchester setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by ortek_service View Post
And it seems that all the various make ones for the Beeb, all used an ST-506 HDD, with an Adaptec to SCSI Host Adaptor board).
The Acorn Cambridge Workstation certainly does that. There's the Acorn SCSI host adapter and an Adaptec interface board in the left hand side tray and an ST412 interfaced hard drive.

[Note, almost all drives that are called 'ST506 interface' support buffered seeks and thus are more correctly 'ST412 interface'.]
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