UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > General Vintage Technology > General Vintage Technology Discussions

Notices

General Vintage Technology Discussions For general discussions about vintage radio and other vintage electronics etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 1st Mar 2023, 2:12 pm   #41
Cathovisor
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Posts: 418
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
Oh? I (and millions of others) always thought that there was such a thing as a digital aerial - at least, an aerial designed for use with digital televisions.
Nope - definitely no such thing. The only thing about so-called "digital" aerials is they may differ in their channel grouping away from the traditional likes of A and C/D for example.
Cathovisor is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 2:19 pm   #42
stevehertz
Dekatron
 
stevehertz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK.
Posts: 8,809
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathovisor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
Oh? I (and millions of others) always thought that there was such a thing as a digital aerial - at least, an aerial designed for use with digital televisions.
Nope - definitely no such thing. The only thing about so-called "digital" aerials is they may differ in their channel grouping away from the traditional likes of A and C/D for example.
Ah right, thanks for the clarification.
__________________
A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever..
stevehertz is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 2:19 pm   #43
Cathovisor
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Posts: 418
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinshack View Post
Back in the early 60s, there was a tv interference phenomenon named "The Peterborough Effect".
This was something like the second harmonic of the tv tuned to channel 5 could cause patterning interference to nearby tv tuned to channel 11, due to poor screening of the channel 5 tv allowing excessive second harmonic local oscillator radiation.
This kept the post Office interference teams locally extremely busy.
We used the 5/11 channels at home in Farcet for 405 reception and ITV seemed okay, really; but as for "Peterborough Effect" (which I recall as a marketing slogan by the PDC), sure you're not getting mixed up with the better-known "Penge Effect"?
Cathovisor is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 2:32 pm   #44
Cathovisor
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2022
Location: Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Posts: 418
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

My own experience of getting new aerials installed was when DSO occurred: for years we had a deteriorating Group A for Sandy and a C/D for Waltham, but preferred to watch "Look East" for news. In the end we only got a good Sandy signal if it rained and neither aerial proved much cop for DSO, so I had a few installers round and I told them what I wanted. Only one actually turned up with a proper panoramic field strength meter and said it was possible, others said "no" so the ones that proved the system properly got the job.

The installation they did was expensive, but absolutely first-class - of a quality I would have been proud to have done myself. They had to wait for a Band II aerial to be supplied and when they fitted it, it was a 3-element one which given that you can see Morborne from the rooftop was a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut! - but they also gave me an attenuator to fit to the downlead where it went into the distribution amplifier as they said there was a real risk of cross-mod if I didn't fit it - IIRC the signal strength at 90MHz was something outrageous like 75dBuV!

I never did fit it as I have/had a number of rather deaf valve VHF radios...
Cathovisor is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 2:57 pm   #45
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,485
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Quote:
Oh? I (and millions of others) always thought that there was such a thing as a digital aerial
No, I'm afraid you (and many others) are unwitting victims of what might be called 'Techfoolery'. A UHF Yagi which previously picked up analogue TV signals will work equally well for terrestrial digital TV as both modulation methods (analogue and digital) were transmitted on the same UHF radio band, so the same type of aerial is OK for both.

When analogue transmissions ended in your area and digital transmissions started the digital transmissions -may- have been in a higher or lower section of the UHF TV band than your original analogue transmissions, and it is possible that you would get better performance on digital terrestrial by changing to another aerial which is more strongly resonant on the exact part of the band occupied by the digital signals you are trying to receive.

Even so, the new aerial would not be a 'digital' aerial.

There has been a long history of things claiming to be digital or digital-compatible, like headphones, for example. The underlying reason is always the same: Someone wants to sell you something that you don't really need.
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 3:15 pm   #46
Junk Box Nick
Octode
 
Junk Box Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 1,571
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Ahhh, ‘digital’ aerials. Reminds me of the ads promoting DAB radio providing ‘digital quality’ which whilst wasn’t a lie was completely meaningless (but sounds impressive to the unknowing!).

I remember at DSO in my locality there were lots of ads in the local rags for ‘digital’ aerials. I figured that a lot of perfectly good existing antennas were being replaced with these new ‘digital’ wonders. Cynic? Moi?

I remember several folk worried about the DSO and that everything would suddenly disappear from their TV screens. I explained that antennas just received radio waves and how those waves were modulated made no difference, and advised them to stick with their current antenna and see how they got on under the new system.

At the time of DSO I had been without a TV for some years. (I have never been much of a viewer and caring for elderly parents I was seeing enough TV at their home and in nursing homes.) However, I decided to get a TV at DSO and as the rusty yagi on the roof had gone when a chimney had been removed some years before I needed to get a new antenna and mast rigged (I figured the latter would also be useful later for hanging up an HF wire). I had some interesting conversations with aerial riggers who did not realise I was a licensed radio amateur who had built his own 2m, 70cm and 23cm antennas – there at this point being no evidence of ham operation at this address.

What I did go for was a wide frequency log periodic given that my understanding was that the frequency spectrum used for digital transmission was wider than the old grouped local 5 channel UHF band. However, next door had another contract antenna when their old one fell to pieces and the other neighbour still uses an ancient pre-DSO yagi.

Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield are not distant and so we are in a strong signal area. My neighbours’ aerials will have greater directional gain at the centre frequency but it probably makes little difference at those frequencies for which their antennas are off tune. My log periodic with be in tune at more frequencies but will have lower directional gain overall so, ultimately, probably swings and roundabouts here.

Perhaps transmission of entertainment services via the ether are set to disappear and with this the household antenna also. And so I consider a final thought: why would anyone bother using the air/ether as a transmission medium when it can all be sent via cables.

Last edited by Junk Box Nick; 1st Mar 2023 at 3:21 pm.
Junk Box Nick is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 3:38 pm   #47
stevehertz
Dekatron
 
stevehertz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK.
Posts: 8,809
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Quote:
Oh? I (and millions of others) always thought that there was such a thing as a digital aerial
No, I'm afraid you (and many others) are unwitting victims of what might be called 'Techfoolery'. A UHF Yagi which previously picked up analogue TV signals will work equally well for terrestrial digital TV as both modulation methods (analogue and digital) were transmitted on the same UHF radio band, so the same type of aerial is OK for both.

When analogue transmissions ended in your area and digital transmissions started the digital transmissions -may- have been in a higher or lower section of the UHF TV band than your original analogue transmissions, and it is possible that you would get better performance on digital terrestrial by changing to another aerial which is more strongly resonant on the exact part of the band occupied by the digital signals you are trying to receive.

Even so, the new aerial would not be a 'digital' aerial.

There has been a long history of things claiming to be digital or digital-compatible, like headphones, for example. The underlying reason is always the same: Someone wants to sell you something that you don't really need.
Indeed, as was explained in post 41. Cheers.
__________________
A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever..
stevehertz is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 4:01 pm   #48
Hybrid tellies
Nonode
 
Hybrid tellies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 1966-1976 Coverack in Cornwall and Helston Cornwall. 1976-present Bristol/Bath area.
Posts: 2,965
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

I have noticed a thinning out of TV aerials and dishes. If they fall down they don.t get replaced and I cant remember seeing a new UHF aerial installation going up.
Its the same for FM, we live in a poor FM signal area and there are a few 4-6 element FM rooftop aerials there was more but many of these have been taken down.
__________________
Simon
BVWS member
Hybrid tellies is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 4:17 pm   #49
G6Tanuki
Dekatron
 
G6Tanuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 13,953
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Many new-build houses don't have chimneys, so removing the traditional VHF/UHF antenna-mounting location of choice.

Locally, the DTTV choice is between Membury and a couple of infill transmitters (which only ever carried Freeview Lite) - satellite was popular but a recent-build housing-estate nearby shows surprisingly-few dishes.

I guess things have moved on; no longer do people get a dish or TV antenna put up as a status-symbol even though they can't yet afford a TV!
__________________
I'm the Operator of my Pocket Calculator. -Kraftwerk.
G6Tanuki is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 4:26 pm   #50
stevehertz
Dekatron
 
stevehertz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK.
Posts: 8,809
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
Many new-build houses don't have chimneys, so removing the traditional VHF/UHF antenna-mounting location of choice.

Locally, the DTTV choice is between Membury and a couple of infill transmitters (which only ever carried Freeview Lite) - satellite was popular but a recent-build housing-estate nearby shows surprisingly-few dishes.

I guess things have moved on; no longer do people get a dish or TV antenna put up as a status-symbol even though they can't yet afford a TV!
I was near to a new housing development the other day and I noticed that although the roofs had not been completed, there were chimney stacks 'hanging' where they would normally be placed. That is to say, they were not supported by brickwork or anything substantial below them, just resting on the wooden truss work. The only conclusion I could draw is that they were there for appearance sake (and to house the liner) and must have been made out of something like fibre glass.

In fact, I've just done a search, and yes they're false chimneys made from fibreglass: https://www.brickfab.com/product/grp-chimneys
__________________
A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever..
stevehertz is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 6:34 pm   #51
CambridgeWorks
Nonode
 
CambridgeWorks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Spalding, Peterborough, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Posts: 2,851
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Cathovisor, post #40:
"Did you know Brian Scotney, who took over the shop? I lived in the next village - Farcet. It's a florists now."

Was he tall, ginger hair, spectacles and drove a VW Beetle?
If so, that was the Brian who was there when I was. Mostly on tv repairs.
We moved to 47 Broadway, Farcet after leaving Main St, Yaxley.
There from about 1962 to 64.
Thinking about it, in the late 70s I returned and am pretty sure he was there then. I bought the Mullard HSVT and cards. I no longer have it now though.
Rob
__________________
Apprehension creeping like a tube train up your spine - Cymbaline. Film More soundtrack - Pink Floyd

Last edited by CambridgeWorks; 1st Mar 2023 at 6:37 pm. Reason: added first line Cathovisor
CambridgeWorks is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 7:21 pm   #52
winston_1
Hexode
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 497
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junk Box Nick View Post
And so I consider a final thought: why would anyone bother using the air/ether as a transmission medium when it can all be sent via cables.
Very simple. Once an aerial is installed there is nothing more to pay.
With cable, usually Virgin Media, you have ongoing payments every month for ever.
winston_1 is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 7:24 pm   #53
winston_1
Hexode
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 497
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

[QUOTE=stevehertz;1540442]
Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
[B][I]


In fact, I've just done a search, and yes they're false chimneys made from fibreglass: https://www.brickfab.com/product/grp-chimneys
Wow, the mind bogles. Are these false chimneys strong enough to support a large TV, FM, and DAB aerial installation I wonder.
winston_1 is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 7:49 pm   #54
Vintage Engr
Heptode
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Shrewsbury, Shropshire, UK.
Posts: 824
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

When I started in the domestic TV trade back in 1962, being young & suposedly agile, I was asked to put up the Band I/III aerials, so I had the fear of heights more or less forcibly taken from me.

However I soon complained that I was doing too many, & thus returned to the bench.
Now, in my dotage, I still end up putting up UHF & VHF aerials, on my property, & also on my neighbours.
I live totally 'out-in-the-sticks, & thus rely on terrestrial methods of receiving both TV & FM signals. I have a direct, very elevated view of the Wrekin Transmitter, - compass & signal strength meter being unnecessary.

Currently all my internet data is also received via RF, using short-hop microwave systems.

It will be interesting if all terrestrial transmissions cease( I did manage to see a leaked document some time back, stating that the intention was to sell off all current frequencies.) The chances of a fibre connection for me are very unlikely! If eveything goes via the internet, there will be more & more demands on bandwidth.

David.
Vintage Engr is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 8:33 pm   #55
dglcomp
Heptode
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 870
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathovisor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
Oh? I (and millions of others) always thought that there was such a thing as a digital aerial - at least, an aerial designed for use with digital televisions.
Nope - definitely no such thing. The only thing about so-called "digital" aerials is they may differ in their channel grouping away from the traditional likes of A and C/D for example.
Yes, the old Telefield? antenna in my Grans loft must have been from the 70's but got perfect digital reception (even no issues when the recorder was in standby and the loop through connection was unpowered), it would even pick up the BBC Muxes from Wenvoe (~25mi to Mendip, ~45mi to Wenvoe) despite being in a different direction (though that's where BBC national radio came from).
Interestingly even using an indoor aerial pointed in roughly the right direction I don't think I ever got Stockland Hill despite it being only ~15mi away, though it isn't as powerful as Mendip.

Also as a test before DSO I managed to get a usable Freeview on a Fidelity portable (https://www.***********/photos/richard16378/49945083197/) simply using the TV's built in loop antenna!, I used a Freeview STB combined with a Ferguson VCR as a modulator (something it was made to do as you could enable the tuner/modulator it's own) and I was amazed that it worked. The location was quite high up in Crewkerne so had a somewhat Good line if sight to Mendip.
dglcomp is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 9:01 pm   #56
duncanlowe
Nonode
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Stafford, Staffs. UK.
Posts: 2,529
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Have to agree. 'Digital' aerials was a con in many ways. But in another a fractional truth, in that often the DVB-T signals were not in the same part of the band that suited the old grouped aerials.

I was a VERY early adopter of DVB-T (as we know it now, Freeview but previously some channels were paid for) and my Grundig DVB-T CRT TV cost a fair bit. I'll be honest it was a gamble as there was almost no information about whether we could actually receive the new fangled digital TV. But even with what was then the low power DVB-T signals from Sutton Coldfield, I was really happy to see the digital signals alongside tha analogue ones. All from our conventional aerial.

Yes we have upgraded since and now have a quite substantial wideband which is probably appropriate now there are more multiplexes, but certainly a 'digital' aerial is not a thing.

TBF, we don't tend to use it as our TVs have Freesat and Freeview. HD came to Freesat before Freeview, and we have just kind have got used to it.
duncanlowe is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 9:21 pm   #57
dglcomp
Heptode
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Portland, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 870
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

One interesting thing now is that wideband aerials are in some senses actually were not the sensible thing to fit as only in areas that used the higher frequencies in the end had big changes with the 800/700mhz sell off, anyone in an A or B area would still have been best with a grouped antenna as the band no longer goes any further, plus having an aerial that is not so great at the frequencies now used by mobile phones is probably a good idea.

Anyone now needing the full bandwidth actually needs a group K antenna.
dglcomp is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 11:10 pm   #58
Richard_FM
Nonode
 
Richard_FM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 2,000
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrStrangelove View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard_FM View Post
The J-Beam aerial on my parents fell down about 15 years ago, & the rigger who fitted the new one reckoned it was over 20 years since he last had seen one like it. The house was built in 1973 & it was probably put up soon after it was built. I remember it was quite brittle after 35 years.
I'm still using a J-Beam Parabeam from the mid 60s.

It's been on 3 houses so far and even managed to survive the kind attentions of the scaffolders & roofers a couple of years ago with some running repairs.

It's a bit like Trigger's broom in places though.

More uselessly there's a Group E contract 18 element in the box room that was used back in the day to receive signals from across the Bristol Channel when BBC 2 Wales did its usual opt outs of things I wanted to watch in favour of the oval ball obsession.

My late father erected aerials in the 50s, just as well he was a big strong man (much stronger than me) with those Ch5 double H for receiving Wenvoe.
That's good to know, I've found a picture of a similar aerial.

In Marple it was possible to get the Welsh channels, which meant coping with snow to watch something alternative. I remember my Dad watching S4C to see Wales play a football game that wasn't being shown nationally.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	029.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	8.5 KB
ID:	274242  
__________________
Hello IT: Have you Tried Turning It Off & On Again?
Richard_FM is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2023, 11:21 pm   #59
Nuvistor
Dekatron
 
Nuvistor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Wigan, Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 9,427
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

The Parabeam from J Beam, if I remember correctly they eked a little extra gain by reducing the vertical acceptance angle, a good aerial.
I had a J Beam Multibeam in my loft since 1970, unfortunately it is Group C which was correct for the Analogue channels from Winter Hill but unfortunately not for the new DVB-T channels from WH since the 700Mhz clear out. I had a wideband also in the loft that fed a room that now doesn’t have a TV so I swapped the coax over. It’s worked well but will have to see if mobile phones cause problems. Perhaps I will have to fit a filter in the future, time will tell.
__________________
Frank
Nuvistor is online now  
Old 2nd Mar 2023, 8:55 am   #60
Electronpusher0
Nonode
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Bognor Regis, West Sussex, UK.
Posts: 2,288
Default Re: Demise of the TV aerial.

We use the streaming services both for catch up and for the likes of Netflix etc. but still use a Sat dish for general TV watching.
The one thing we no longer use is the HDD recorder.

Its clear that eventually terestrial transmissions of TV will go and most likely the Sat ones as well. Eggs and baskets spring to mind.

Peter
Electronpusher0 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:39 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.