Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Phil__G · 17th Dec 2023, 2:33 am

Here's my quick & easy method of making a scrolling message on your MK14 or PIC14. Lets see some Christmas messages!

https://www.mccrash-racing.co.uk/phi...essage_f20.zip

Phil__G · 17th Dec 2023, 11:18 am

Well, theres nothing new under the sun - Johannes just told me about this, but still it was a bit of fun to write one in good ol' basic

https://github.com/dadecoza/Ardu14/b...mk14message.py

SiriusHardware · 18th Dec 2023, 7:13 pm

I wish I could drum up some enthusiasm for this but since there's no easy representation for 'M' (or 'X' for that matter) on 7-segment displays, 'Merry Christmas' is quite a challenge!

I like the idea of having an easier way to 'compile' alternative texts for the 'Message' program to display, though, so that's genuinely useful.

SiriusHardware · 18th Dec 2023, 7:22 pm

I used to have a written out table of all possibly useful 7-segment characters (in some cases both upper and lower case versions, like 'C' and 'O') and I just used to refer to that when I wanted to make some custom text.

In the (rather shonky) video demo for my original 2012 MK14 uploader I made a modified version of the 'Message' program which scrolled the text quite fast but then held each individual word on the display for half a second or so before scrolling it off and the next one on. That actually looked better and more readable than the standard message program. I used some uncommonly used character code as a 'pause for half a second' control character between words, and the main addition to the code was the bit that responded to that.

Unfortunately I think I lost the source for that when I reformatted the Pi SD card that I had written that code on originally. Maybe we need a new version?

Phil__G · 18th Dec 2023, 9:45 pm

I've just done a variation of the Science of Cambridge 'Message' program.
In the original you have to look up all the 7-segment codes, either manually or using a conversion program, and then you have to turn the message around so its backwards.
Quite a faff!
This new version takes a straightforward uppercase ASCII message, there are no manual look-ups to do, no reversing, just type your message into the source and assemble.
Obviously its a bit bigger, but who keys in manually these days?

https://www.mccrash-racing.co.uk/phi...essage_f20.zip
Execute at F20 as usual.

Realtime · 19th Dec 2023, 5:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiriusHardware

... since there's no easy representation for 'M' (or 'X' for that matter) on 7-segment displays, 'Merry Christmas' is quite a challenge!

Of course this is the exact 'problem' that TELEKIT has, but it's surprising how quickly you get used to interpreting those slightly strange characters. Also the brain fills in letters that may not be obvious to make words that are recognisable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil__G

This new version takes a straightforward uppercase ASCII message, there are no manual look-ups to do, no reversing, just type your message into the source and assemble.

Thanks Phil, that's a big improvement over the original. Just tried " THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG ". Superb

and still around 50 bytes left for a longer message.

SiriusHardware · 19th Dec 2023, 10:02 pm

I'm obviously too literal-minded to accept the idea that characters like 'K', 'M', 'Q', 'V', 'W' 'X' and 'Z' can be represented on 7-segment displays.

Obviously the VDU presents no such limitations so I'm surprised there isn't already a VDU version of the classic 'Message' program, and since there's vertical leeway available why not go mad and make it an Amiga-style sine-scroller... Might work better with a bitmap font designed for graphics mode so the characters can be shifted up or down by a a small fraction of the overall character height.

Phil__G · 19th Dec 2023, 10:29 pm

I just added the Sirius autostart bit & re-uploaded it

Phil__G · 20th Dec 2023, 1:00 am

Yesterday, as I was poring over the 'Message' with a mug of tea, I started thinking how incredibly well these early examples were coded. We of course have 45 years of hindsight, hardware familiarity and many examples for inspiration, we can chat and compare notes with umpteen like-minded enthusiasts, draw on each others experience.
But pioneers like DJD, Nick Toop, JMK and the like were starting absolutely from scratch, without any precedents, very little by way of reference works or even an concept of how microcomputer programs should look or perform. And in a brand new field of electronics with an unknown chip supported only by the few NS publications for guidance. Its highly unlikely they each had an Imp16 or a PACE for development

so I presume most of the MK14 manual examples were hand-coded. Astonishing really to think how capable and innovative these people were.

Incidentally, I wonder of National Semis Introkit+KBkit combination came with a book full of examples like the MK14 did?

ScottishColin · 20th Dec 2023, 11:20 am

I have a deep (perhaps irrational) dislike of AI but I was wondering what ChatGPT would make of this.

Colin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil__G

Yesterday, as I was poring over the 'Message'
with a mug of tea, I started thinking how incredibly well these early examples were coded. We of course have 45 years of hindsight, hardware familiarity and many examples for inspiration, we can chat and compare notes with umpteen like-minded enthusiasts, draw on each others experience.
But pioneers like DJD, Nick Toop, JMK and the like were starting absolutely from scratch, without any precedents, very little by way of reference works or even an concept of how microcomputer programs should look or perform. And in a brand new field of electronics with an unknown chip supported only by the few NS publications for guidance. Its highly unlikely they each had an Imp16 or a PACE for development

so I presume most of the MK14 manual examples were hand-coded. Astonishing really to think how capable and innovative these people were.

Incidentally, I wonder of National Semis Introkit+KBkit combination came with a book full of examples like the MK14 did?

Timbucus · 20th Dec 2023, 10:06 pm

Well BING CoPilot (GPT-4) wrote the below (I reproduce verbatim):

(interestingly the four citations used were (wikipedia, w3.org, curiousmarc.com and Yay vintage-radio.net!!!!)

"Writing code for the National Semiconductor SC/MP (pronounced “scamp”) in 1976 was an intriguing endeavor. This early 8-bit microprocessor, which became available in April 1976, was designed to allow systems to be implemented with the minimum number of additional support chips1. Let’s delve into the challenges and experiences of coding for this historic microprocessor:

Limited Resources: The SC/MP had a simple architecture and minimal instruction set, which meant that programmers had to work with limited resources. They needed to be creative in optimizing code to fit within the available memory and processing capabilities.

Assembly Programming: Writing code for the SC/MP involved assembly language programming. Programmers had to manually translate high-level instructions into machine code, which required a deep understanding of the processor’s instruction set and memory organization.

Debugging Challenges: Debugging was a hands-on process. Programmers used LED displays and switches on development boards to examine memory contents, step through code, and identify issues. There were no sophisticated debugging tools or integrated development environments (IDEs) like we have today.

Lack of Documentation: Documentation for early microprocessors was often sparse. Programmers relied on data sheets, manuals, and sometimes trial and error to understand the processor’s behavior and write efficient code.

Hardware Constraints: The SC/MP was intended for low-cost systems, so developers had to work with minimal hardware components. They needed to be resourceful in designing circuits and interfaces to connect peripherals and memory.

Learning Curve: As one of the first microprocessors available, the SC/MP required programmers to learn from scratch. They had to grasp concepts like registers, addressing modes, and interrupt handling without the wealth of online resources we have today.

Pioneering Spirit: Writing code for the SC/MP was an adventure. Programmers were pioneers, exploring uncharted territory in the world of microprocessors. Their passion and determination fueled their efforts.

In summary, coding for the SC/MP in 1976 was both challenging and rewarding. It laid the foundation for subsequent generations of microprocessors and contributed to the evolution of computing technology"

Realtime · 20th Dec 2023, 10:49 pm

Haha, It’s a bit “teenager googling their homework”. Perhaps you can ask GPT to produce the SC/MP assembler code for PacMan running on an expanded MK14

Timbucus · 20th Dec 2023, 11:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Realtime

Haha, It’s a bit “teenager googling their homework”. Perhaps you can ask GPT to produce the SC/MP assembler code for PacMan running on an expanded MK14

I did ask for a sample SC/MP program - it gave me some drivel in ASM I did not recognise.

ortek_service · 21st Dec 2023, 3:21 pm

Well even with Python etc, it seems it doesn't get it right first time, from some trials a work colleague did a year ago - But you could reply with what is wrong and get it to have another go with refining it.

Interesting it uses a discussion forum for 'facts' research - possibly a bit like relying on certain Newspaper or some notorious TV 'News' channels. But maybe there aren't that many detailed sources of info on the pre-Internet era SC/MP.

17th Dec 2023, 2:33 am	#1
Phil__G Octode Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,123	Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. Here's my quick & easy method of making a scrolling message on your MK14 or PIC14. Lets see some Christmas messages! https://www.mccrash-racing.co.uk/phi...essage_f20.zip

17th Dec 2023, 11:18 am	#2
Phil__G Octode Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,123	Re: Quick & easy scrollingmessages on an MK14 or PIC14 Well, theres nothing new under the sun - Johannes just told me about this, but still it was a bit of fun to write one in good ol' basic https://github.com/dadecoza/Ardu14/b...mk14message.py Last edited by Phil__G; 17th Dec 2023 at 11:41 am.

18th Dec 2023, 7:13 pm	#3
SiriusHardware Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK. Posts: 11,603	Re: Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. I wish I could drum up some enthusiasm for this but since there's no easy representation for 'M' (or 'X' for that matter) on 7-segment displays, 'Merry Christmas' is quite a challenge! I like the idea of having an easier way to 'compile' alternative texts for the 'Message' program to display, though, so that's genuinely useful.

18th Dec 2023, 7:22 pm	#4
SiriusHardware Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK. Posts: 11,603	Re: Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. I used to have a written out table of all possibly useful 7-segment characters (in some cases both upper and lower case versions, like 'C' and 'O') and I just used to refer to that when I wanted to make some custom text. In the (rather shonky) video demo for my original 2012 MK14 uploader I made a modified version of the 'Message' program which scrolled the text quite fast but then held each individual word on the display for half a second or so before scrolling it off and the next one on. That actually looked better and more readable than the standard message program. I used some uncommonly used character code as a 'pause for half a second' control character between words, and the main addition to the code was the bit that responded to that. Unfortunately I think I lost the source for that when I reformatted the Pi SD card that I had written that code on originally. Maybe we need a new version?

18th Dec 2023, 9:45 pm	#5
Phil__G Octode Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,123	Re: Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. I've just done a variation of the Science of Cambridge 'Message' program. In the original you have to look up all the 7-segment codes, either manually or using a conversion program, and then you have to turn the message around so its backwards. Quite a faff! This new version takes a straightforward uppercase ASCII message, there are no manual look-ups to do, no reversing, just type your message into the source and assemble. Obviously its a bit bigger, but who keys in manually these days? https://www.mccrash-racing.co.uk/phi...essage_f20.zip Execute at F20 as usual.

19th Dec 2023, 10:02 pm	#7
SiriusHardware Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK. Posts: 11,603	Re: Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. I'm obviously too literal-minded to accept the idea that characters like 'K', 'M', 'Q', 'V', 'W' 'X' and 'Z' can be represented on 7-segment displays. Obviously the VDU presents no such limitations so I'm surprised there isn't already a VDU version of the classic 'Message' program, and since there's vertical leeway available why not go mad and make it an Amiga-style sine-scroller... Might work better with a bitmap font designed for graphics mode so the characters can be shifted up or down by a a small fraction of the overall character height.

19th Dec 2023, 10:29 pm	#8
Phil__G Octode Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,123	Re: Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. I just added the Sirius autostart bit & re-uploaded it

20th Dec 2023, 1:00 am	#9
Phil__G Octode Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,123	Re: Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. Yesterday, as I was poring over the 'Message' with a mug of tea, I started thinking how incredibly well these early examples were coded. We of course have 45 years of hindsight, hardware familiarity and many examples for inspiration, we can chat and compare notes with umpteen like-minded enthusiasts, draw on each others experience. But pioneers like DJD, Nick Toop, JMK and the like were starting absolutely from scratch, without any precedents, very little by way of reference works or even an concept of how microcomputer programs should look or perform. And in a brand new field of electronics with an unknown chip supported only by the few NS publications for guidance. Its highly unlikely they each had an Imp16 or a PACE for development so I presume most of the MK14 manual examples were hand-coded. Astonishing really to think how capable and innovative these people were. Incidentally, I wonder of National Semis Introkit+KBkit combination came with a book full of examples like the MK14 did? Last edited by Phil__G; 20th Dec 2023 at 1:16 am.

20th Dec 2023, 10:06 pm	#11
Timbucus Octode Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Barry, Vale of Glamorgan, Wales, UK. Posts: 1,364	Re: Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. Well BING CoPilot (GPT-4) wrote the below (I reproduce verbatim): (interestingly the four citations used were (wikipedia, w3.org, curiousmarc.com and Yay vintage-radio.net!!!!) "Writing code for the National Semiconductor SC/MP (pronounced “scamp”) in 1976 was an intriguing endeavor. This early 8-bit microprocessor, which became available in April 1976, was designed to allow systems to be implemented with the minimum number of additional support chips1. Let’s delve into the challenges and experiences of coding for this historic microprocessor: Limited Resources: The SC/MP had a simple architecture and minimal instruction set, which meant that programmers had to work with limited resources. They needed to be creative in optimizing code to fit within the available memory and processing capabilities. Assembly Programming: Writing code for the SC/MP involved assembly language programming. Programmers had to manually translate high-level instructions into machine code, which required a deep understanding of the processor’s instruction set and memory organization. Debugging Challenges: Debugging was a hands-on process. Programmers used LED displays and switches on development boards to examine memory contents, step through code, and identify issues. There were no sophisticated debugging tools or integrated development environments (IDEs) like we have today. Lack of Documentation: Documentation for early microprocessors was often sparse. Programmers relied on data sheets, manuals, and sometimes trial and error to understand the processor’s behavior and write efficient code. Hardware Constraints: The SC/MP was intended for low-cost systems, so developers had to work with minimal hardware components. They needed to be resourceful in designing circuits and interfaces to connect peripherals and memory. Learning Curve: As one of the first microprocessors available, the SC/MP required programmers to learn from scratch. They had to grasp concepts like registers, addressing modes, and interrupt handling without the wealth of online resources we have today. Pioneering Spirit: Writing code for the SC/MP was an adventure. Programmers were pioneers, exploring uncharted territory in the world of microprocessors. Their passion and determination fueled their efforts. In summary, coding for the SC/MP in 1976 was both challenging and rewarding. It laid the foundation for subsequent generations of microprocessors and contributed to the evolution of computing technology"

20th Dec 2023, 10:49 pm	#12
Realtime Hexode Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Ashford, Kent, UK Posts: 320	Re: Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. Haha, It’s a bit “teenager googling their homework”. Perhaps you can ask GPT to produce the SC/MP assembler code for PacMan running on an expanded MK14

21st Dec 2023, 3:21 pm	#14
ortek_service Octode Join Date: May 2018 Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK. Posts: 1,453	Re: Quick & easy scrolling messages on an MK14 or PIC14. Well even with Python etc, it seems it doesn't get it right first time, from some trials a work colleague did a year ago - But you could reply with what is wrong and get it to have another go with refining it. Interesting it uses a discussion forum for 'facts' research - possibly a bit like relying on certain Newspaper or some notorious TV 'News' channels. But maybe there aren't that many detailed sources of info on the pre-Internet era SC/MP.