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Old 31st Jul 2020, 1:56 pm   #61
Telephone Guy
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Hello folks,

I'll try to deal with as many of the previous observations/suggestions as I can. In reverse order:

Re the CD1000: whilst I can't claim to have any clue as to what's inside the little oblong box, I can only report as previously that it seems to make no difference whether the phone in question goes through the CD1000 adaptor or it doesn't - i.e. nothing changes when the CD1000 is removed. As regards checking out the sockets, as mentioned previously, for all practical intents and purposes this is impossible in at least one, arguably two, of the cases in question. Of the remaining two sockets, even one of those is only just about accessible; in real terms, of the four sockets in use, there's only one that's relatively easy to access. I'm not sure by any means, but I feel I might be right in saying that if you can't check all of the sockets, there's not a lot to be gained by checking any of them. If the suggestion is that I should disconnect the capacitor in the master socket, even if my residual electronic knowledge is adequate to identify the capacitor on sight, the master socket is only just about accessible enough to touch with your fingertips, never mind conduct internal surgery. A BT engineer might risk it, but I'm not at all sure I should.

As regards Dave's question concerning where the resistor is in phone A in the picture I posted, I believe what's happened is that I posted that particular picture before installing the second resistor between T16 & T17, which is where it is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by russell_w_b View Post
I don't know whether all exchanges are the same, but the ringing voltage (nominally 75V rms) is generally superimposed on the 50V d.c. present across your telephone pair.

Was your previous address on a different exchange to the one you are on now?

What if you were on an exchange where the 50V d.c. was replaced by the ringing voltage rather than superimposed upon it, putting a peak ringing voltage of 106V across the gas gap (spark gap) in your B and C telephones? They might withstand that and you wouldn't know.

Now... Suppose you move your telephones to your new address where the exchange ringing voltage is superimposed upon the 50V d.c. You now have a peak voltage of 156V every half-cycle, which might take the gas-gap low-resistance and shunt the line, greatly affecting your ring signal.

This is a long shot but it has to be considered.
Yes, the previous address was on a different exchange, and yes, I take your point about the difference in methodology where the ringing voltage is concerned. I won't claim to understand the 'gas-gap' and 'shunt the line' references, but I take your point that the different voltage might create a different effect. I have no conclusive way of knowing for sure whether or not that is the case, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by russell_w_b View Post
I see phones B & C have gas-gaps in them (surge arrestors). If these went soft they would short out the bell when a ringing voltage was present, but the phones would still work on loop. But likely you have tried all phones individually on a socket, and they all ring individually.

Have you got a pal who has sufficient telephone socket capacity to test all your phones? There appear to be a few variables here hitherto undisclosed and it would help if you went onto another line with no extraneous attachments.

Not sure if the socket on your scanner through which phone C is plugged has its own filter / bell wire capacitor fitted. But because a difference on one part of the line will upset the balance on the other parts - the load has to be calculated as a whole and we now don't know what's in there - you'd be better testing your phones on a known 'good' circuit elsewhere. Preferably a place with one master socket, three extensions (double adaptors would do) and nothing else.
As mentioned above, the terminology is a bit above my pay-grade, but yes, all the phones individually ring normally. No, I don't know anyone who would have a suitably similar socket configuration to be able to test out all the phones elsewhere, although I won't lie, I'm reaching a point where I'm seriously considering resorting to smoke signals in any case.

To the best of my knowledge, the only 'hitherto undisclosed variable' was the CD1000, which was indeed my bad, but which at the same time does not appear to influence the situation one way or the other. I do see that it would be nice for experimental purposes to be able to do as you suggest, but unfortunately I don't have the facility to achieve it. All of that being said, one experiment did occur to me which was rather easier to carry out. I had, stored away, a 746 of similar vintage to the 782 ( phone A ) which started all this. So, I unplugged phone A and plugged in the 746, which again was working perfectly well when last used. The net result as regards the effect on the ringing of all four phones was identical to when phone A is plugged in. I may not understand in-depth electronics, but I have a fair grasp of basic logic, and this tells me that one of two things must surely be true: either both phones ( i.e. the 746 and the 782 - phone A ) have precisely identical faults ( which seems to me to be relatively unlikely ), or else the fault doesn't lie within the phone at all. If that is the case - I do say 'if'!!! - then I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that I may simply have no choice but to accept the situation and live with it, this having already become a far more complicated problem than I ever dreamed it would be! At any rate, for whatever it's worth, that's the story so far. Any thoughts, observations, suggestions - bearing in mind my fairly rudimentary level of knowledge - are very welcome indeed, and by the way, let me also take this opportunity to thank all those who have contributed so far. When the film of this saga comes out, I'll be happy to credit you all accordingly.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 2:12 pm   #62
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

I think you're right in that it's something you'll have to put up. It's sounding very much like a wiring problem and as you can't get at the sockets to see what's what, never mind correct any problems, you're stuck.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 2:32 pm   #63
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

I agree that the problem appears to lie with socket A, so you're stuck with it if you're not in a position to open it up.
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 2:46 pm   #64
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

The conversion of telephones with low impedance ringers in can be frought with problems, especially, as you alluded to in post 1, your distance from the exchange. Maybe you should've headed this post 'a line too far'!

The length of your line, the 'unknowns' of it on your premises and the resistance or other socket issues thereof could have significant impact on you being able to squeeze a quart of ringing from a pint network pot.

Once you can drive a certain current though the bells, as low as about 13mA, you'll be fine. But you need some means of getting that sort of supply, and that might mean either a small exchange, stand-alone or computer-based, or a ringer extender box (REN Booster).
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Old 31st Jul 2020, 2:55 pm   #65
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePillenwerfer View Post
I think you're right in that it's something you'll have to put up. It's sounding very much like a wiring problem and as you can't get at the sockets to see what's what, never mind correct any problems, you're stuck.
I would suggest a simple thing to try. Get a master socket and three secondary sockets, all screwed to a piece of MDF/plywood etc. Then wire then all up 2-2 , 3-3 and 5-5 in each one. Then connect 2 and 5 to 2 and 5 somewhere along the existing set of sockets or preferably to the rear of the front cover of the NTE5 'Master socket' and ideally with your own wiring disconnected . Then plug your phones into the new set of sockets and see how they work. That should at least at least prove if the phones work OK when all plugged in to a known correctly wired set of sockets. And if the fault is in your internal wiring.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 1:05 pm   #66
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
I agree that the problem appears to lie with socket A, so you're stuck with it if you're not in a position to open it up.
Ah.

I may have misunderstood. I had thought it to be the case that unless it was possible to provide photographs of all the sockets, any individual ones on their own were of no use. Socket A is the one into which phone A - the new addition - is plugged; that, as it happens, is the only one of the sockets to which access is relatively straightforward. Hence, I've attached photographs of the inside of that socket, in the hope that they might at least help those of you with the knowledge to understand what you're looking at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by russell_w_b View Post
The conversion of telephones with low impedance ringers in can be frought with problems, especially, as you alluded to in post 1, your distance from the exchange. Maybe you should've headed this post 'a line too far'!

The length of your line, the 'unknowns' of it on your premises and the resistance or other socket issues thereof could have significant impact on you being able to squeeze a quart of ringing from a pint network pot.

Once you can drive a certain current though the bells, as low as about 13mA, you'll be fine. But you need some means of getting that sort of supply, and that might mean either a small exchange, stand-alone or computer-based, or a ringer extender box (REN Booster).
As for 'a line too far', tell me about it. That aside, I'm happy to take your word for it as regards the necessary amount of current required to ring each phone normally; however, how much current they're getting at the moment, I couldn't tell you. Certainly a small exchange of any kind is unfeasible in our situation and would be taking something of a sledgehammer to crack a walnut; as for a REN booster, the only time in the past I used one of those, it made virtually no apparent difference at all - and again, for what's involved ( including the cost ), it's not an experiment I feel inclined to want to try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellseinydd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePillenwerfer View Post
I think you're right in that it's something you'll have to put up. It's sounding very much like a wiring problem and as you can't get at the sockets to see what's what, never mind correct any problems, you're stuck.
I would suggest a simple thing to try. Get a master socket and three secondary sockets, all screwed to a piece of MDF/plywood etc. Then wire then all up 2-2 , 3-3 and 5-5 in each one. Then connect 2 and 5 to 2 and 5 somewhere along the existing set of sockets or preferably to the rear of the front cover of the NTE5 'Master socket' and ideally with your own wiring disconnected . Then plug your phones into the new set of sockets and see how they work. That should at least at least prove if the phones work OK when all plugged in to a known correctly wired set of sockets. And if the fault is in your internal wiring.
Please don't misunderstand what I'm about to say - I do realise your suggestion is intended to be helpful - but I have to say that we have very different definitions of the word 'simple'!!! I don't doubt that the experiment would achieve the result you mention, but I have nowhere near the time or resources to perform it!

I feel like this is easier than I'm making it, but I just can't quite see how. I'm hoping that the attached pictures may indeed be of some help. As you all know by now, my knowledge of electronics is rudimentary to say the least, but further to numerous earlier references to a capacitor being part ( or all ...? ) of the problem, to my untrained eye, it looks as though the large yellow object is a capacitor. [ Can't quite remember what capacitors do ... store current ...?... although I never did quite get the hang of how that works! ] It worries me that if this is a capacitor - and if it's apparently the offending capacitor that's causing the problems - the only apparent way of disconnecting it is to cut it out of the circuit altogether ( it's obviously not designed to be unplugged or disconnected in any other reversible way ). In light of my experiences with the resistors, it concerns me that I might end up doing this only to find I then need to reconnect it somehow, which I'm ill-equipped to do.

In case anyone thinks it makes a difference, I know the cable to socket A and the socket itself were installed 'after the event', as it were, i.e. not along with all the original cabling in the property, it being the case that the studio is a recent addition. In fairness, I have no reason to think that the guy who installed it was anything less than competent.

As I say, it feels like I'm making this harder than it is, but I've no idea how; all I've done is plug phones into sockets. Still, if there's no other alternative, as mentioned before, we may just have to learn to live with it. As a Virgo ( not that I believe in that stuff! ), I just find it hard to let these things go ...!!
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 1:54 pm   #67
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

That is a master socket. The yellow thing is the capacitor we've been talking about (in this circuit, it basically lets the AC current through to ring the telephone bell, but blocks the DC current that is used to indicate that the telephone is off-hook).

What bothers me is that the external wiring (to the white connector blocks at the bottom of the PCB) is just 2 wires to terminals 2 and 5. That suggests that the 'bell shunt wire' (terminal 3) is possibly not wired on any of the sockets and that they're all master sockets.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 2:25 pm   #68
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

The other thing that strikes me is that it's connected using four-pair cable. While that doesn't matter per se it's unusual enough to make it look like it was done by somebody who had their own ideas or used what they had to hand. As Tony says, there could very well be more than one Master socket.

The Master is usually near to where the cable comes into the house. If it's been installed or changed since the late-'80s it'll also be bigger (about the size of a single mains socket) with a line just above halfway down the front and the hole for the 'phone plug in the middle of the bottom half.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 2:34 pm   #69
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Given that all the 'phones ring somewhat, they must all end up with a ringing capacitor in their bell circuit. And the capacitor in the socket shown in post #66 can only be connected to the telephone plugged into that socket (since there is no wire going to terminal 3 on the connector blocks).

Therefore there must be at least one other master socket in the installation to provide a ringing capacitor for the other telephones. My _guess_ is that all sockets are masters here, all have the capacitor, and that capactor is in the bell circuit of the telephone plugged into that socket only.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 2:51 pm   #70
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

They're all master sockets, if each pic is a different socket. It looks to me like the wiring is all spurred off from a central point to terms. 2 and 5 in each socket, but can't say for certain about sockets 3 and 4 as only one wire is shown in each!

But, if this is the case, and each capacitor is connected to each bell, even with a 3k3 resistor, you're going to be attempting to draw something like 56mA from the exchange! A bell with a REN of 4 - and NO 3k3 resistor - will only draw around 33mA, if the one capacitor in the master LJU is used. So your REN is way too high!

Perhaps this is sinking your ringing signal to a level where it is innefectual?
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 3:44 pm   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by russell_w_b View Post
They're all master sockets, if each pic is a different socket.
Ah... I've just read post 66 properly and the pics are all the same socket! But, just in case the other sockets are masters too, then...
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 4:31 pm   #72
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Putting together all that has gone before, I suspect that the situation is simply that socket A is a second master where it should be a slave (i.e. no additional components within it).

There appear to be two possible ways forward:
1: live with the situation you have currently
2: replace the current socket with the correct one.

If you feel able to tackle option 2, I can supply you with a suitable socket* free-of-charge if you send me your postal address by personal message. You would then connect the blue and white-with-blue-stripe to the slave socket on terminals 2 and 5 respectively as they are currently in the spurious master. You would also need to connect the orange wire to terminal 3. Depending on whether the orange wire has been connected to terminal 3 on the other sockets, this should either solve the problem or mean that 'phone A no longer rings at all.

*Looking at your images, it appears that your current socket fits a standard sinngle pattress rather the smaller ones only used with telephone sockets.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 4:51 pm   #73
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Or just snip the components off the spurious master jack and make it a slave.

When I used to sort out phone wiring faults for friends and family the most common problem was more than one master jack.
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Old 4th Aug 2020, 6:38 pm   #74
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

As the current situation is clearly incorrect, that would certainly be an alternative, though I was thinking of making the change reversible.

N.B. You still wouldn't get ringing on that socket without the orange wire being connected (at both ends!)
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 1:55 pm   #75
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

As far as the question of which of the four in-use sockets are or are not master sockets: we've established, I gather, that socket A is. Socket B ( living-room ) is completely inaccessible. Socket C ( office ) is what I've always understood to be the 'master socket'; certainly none of the BT or EE engineers who've been here have ever questioned that. As far as I can recall, it used to look like the one in The Pillenwerfer's picture, but was replaced a while ago ( a year or so, maybe? ) with a socket that's curved at the top and has the words 'Openreach Master Socket SC ( could be 5C ) on it. That was installed by a BT engineer. It's at the back of a cupboard and only just visible, never mind accessible with a screwdriver etc. The BT engineer was not impressed. Socket D ( bedroom ) is half-and-half; unlike the living-room, the cupboards in front of it are not fixed, but would be very difficult to move unless absolutely essential. It's a decorative brass socket ( as, by the way, is socket B, from what I remember of it before the TV units were fitted in front of it ). I wouldn't have thought either B or D would be configured as master sockets inasmuch as they look like they were probably just bought from B & Q or the like. I could, of course, be wrong.

All of this being said: the external phone cable comes into our loft and goes to some sort of junction box up there. I myself have never seen the junction box in question. You can laugh and point all you like, but I'm profoundly arachnophobic, and the chances of me going up in the loft are slimmer than a page 3 model. I therefore cannot provide any information about the aforesaid junction box except that I presume all the sockets stem from it; even that is pure assumption, however.

Therefore: at a best-guess, it seems we can be fairly sure that sockets A and C are masters, and the balance of probabilities would suggest that B and D are most likely slaves, though this is not certain. As stated, the nature of the loft junction-box and / or it's involvement in any of this is, and will likely remain, unknown.

If I've understood correctly, even the fact of there being one additional master socket is enough to cause problems, and potentially to cause this particular problem. I do say 'if'.

Moving to the possible solutions suggested so far:

Obviously, simply living with the situation is a possibility I may ultimately have no choice but to embrace. I feel there might still be a little way to go yet, though.

Snipping the components off the spurious master to make it a slave may work; if ( again, I do say 'if' ) I've understood the observations about the ( orange? ) bell-shunt wire correctly, that may also cause phone A to not ring at all. As far as I can tell, the only way to reverse that situation, having snipped out all the unnecessary components, would be to replace the socket with a slave; which seems to bring us to Dave's suggestion. I'll be happy to take you up on your very kind offer, Dave, and will certainly PM you with my address. On the face of it, swapping one socket for another doesn't look like it would be too difficult; I'm not entirely sure how the internal connectors within the socket work, but hopefully it isn't rocket science. Presumably if I swap the sockets over and connect the orange wire as you suggest and the phone still doesn't ring, it's a case of going back to the status quo with the spurious master socket? As I say, I have no sure way of knowing whether the orange wire is connected on any or all of the other sockets in the circuit.

Unless anyone has any other thoughts on the matter ( I'm open to any other suggestions that don't involve me getting a doctorate in engineering ), I'll PM my address to Dave and we'll see what happens next.

Thank you all once again.
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 2:50 pm   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
Socket C ( office ) is what I've always understood to be the 'master socket'; certainly none of the BT or EE engineers who've been here have ever questioned that. As far as I can recall, it used to look like the one in The Pillenwerfer's picture, but was replaced a while ago ( a year or so, maybe? ) with a socket that's curved at the top and has the words 'Openreach Master Socket SC ( could be 5C ) on it. That was installed by a BT engineer. It's at the back of a cupboard and only just visible, never mind accessible with a screwdriver etc. The BT engineer was not impressed.
If by curved at the top you mean one with a sloping top like my illustration below, this is a master socket with integrated ADSL (broadband) filter. This should be the only socket with a capacitor (and other components) in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
Socket D ( bedroom ) is half-and-half; unlike the living-room, the cupboards in front of it are not fixed, but would be very difficult to move unless absolutely essential. It's a decorative brass socket ( as, by the way, is socket B, from what I remember of it before the TV units were fitted in front of it ). I wouldn't have thought either B or D would be configured as master sockets inasmuch as they look like they were probably just bought from B & Q or the like. I could, of course, be wrong.
I'm pretty confident that these will be slave sockets, so B, C and D need no further attention - fortunately.

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Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
If I've understood correctly, even the fact of there being one additional master socket is enough to cause problems, and potentially to cause this particular problem.
Although I am surprised that it has caused the level of problem you have encountered, this does seem to be the only conclusion to be reached.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
Snipping the components off the spurious master to make it a slave may work; if ( again, I do say 'if' ) I've understood the observations about the ( orange? ) bell-shunt wire correctly, that may also cause phone A to not ring at all. As far as I can tell, the only way to reverse that situation, having snipped out all the unnecessary components, would be to replace the socket with a slave;
Please note that replacing the former master socket that has had "the snip" with the slave socket that will shortly be winging its way to you will not reverse the situation, it would merely be replacing (electrically-speaking) like for like. If you don't have ringing current present on the orange wire, 'phone A won't ring once the capacitor has been snipped. This is why I suggested replacement with a slave rather than performing the operation, so that the original socket could be re-instated if absolutely necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
Presumably if I swap the sockets over and connect the orange wire as you suggest and the phone still doesn't ring, it's a case of going back to the status quo with the spurious master socket? As I say, I have no sure way of knowing whether the orange wire is connected on any or all of the other sockets in the circuit.
As above.
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 6:00 pm   #77
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Sorry ... just me starting to lose the plot ... I knew what I meant.

Which was: if I don't snip any of the components out of the existing socket, but simply replace it with the slave you're very kindly supplying, then if the slave doesn't work, I can just replace the master socket 'as was', with all components still intact, and be no worse ( or better ) off than when I started.
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Old 5th Aug 2020, 6:41 pm   #78
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Correct.
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Old 11th Aug 2020, 4:16 pm   #79
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<Sigh>

Well, there's good news and there's bad news. The good news is, with the slave socket connected, all three of the other phones ring just fine. In case you haven't seen it coming, the bad news is that phone A doesn't ring at all.

I've connected the blue / blue & white wires as they were in the original socket, to terminals 2 & 5. I don't know whether it makes a difference which way round they go, but yes, I've made sure it's the same way round. I've connected the orange wire to terminal 5; results as above. Just in case, I've followed the directions on the packet and connected the orange & white wire to terminal 4; I don't know if you'd expect this to make any difference, but it doesn't.

As regards the 'orange' and 'orange / white' wires: referring back to my original pictures, I've taken this as near face value as I can. As you can just about tell from the pictures, one wire is orange and the other is orange with a white stripe running along it. The packet describes these as, quote, 'orange with white ring / blue' ( to terminal 3 ); 'white with orange ring / green' ( to terminal 4 ). As per previous posts herein, I've taken their 'orange with white ring' to mean 'orange' and their 'white with orange ring' to mean 'orange with white stripe'. The blue wire is obviously already connected to T2 and the green wire isn't connected to anything, so I've assumed these are red herrings.

So there it is. Unless I've missed something, short of carrying out experiments way beyond my capabilities / resources, it rather looks like we've reached the end of the road. Pending further advice, I haven't yet reconnected the previous ( spurious master ) socket as socket A, but I'm assuming that's the only way I'm going to get all four phones ringing, albeit barely in some cases. Thank you again, Dave, for the socket, and thanks to everyone for their contributions. In light of all of the above, if anyone has any other ideas that seem like they'd be within both my capabilities and my resources, by all means send 'em my way ...!!
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Old 11th Aug 2020, 7:47 pm   #80
TonyDuell
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Default Re: A phone too far ...?

My guess is that the orange/white wires are not connected at the other end of that cable. I know it's next-to-impossible to get to, but I think the only way forward is to work out which socket that cable goes to and unscrew that from the wall to see how it's wired.
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